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Rand Paul Bill Would Curb NSA on Phone Records

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Re: Rand Paul Bill Would Curb NSA on Phone Records

#11

Post by mpyne »

uvdiv wrote: post #10
dkulchenko wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that the entire bill? Seems extremely narrow-scoped and with no terms defined. IIRC, the ongoing spying is not even warrantless - they're operating under a broad-scope warrant issued by FISC, so this bill would do absolutely nothing.

Yes, the entire rulemaking part. It's true the Verizon spying had a secret-court FISA warrant, but was that warrant required to have "probable cause"?

I believe the answer might actually be yes to that as well. Remember the NSA treats analysis (search) of information as different from collection of information.

Doesn't matter though, the proposed law talks about search of American phone records which the NSA is already forbidden (even with PRISM) from looking at.

In other words the new content of this law would be exactly zero, if that's all it purports to add.

Re: Rand Paul Bill Would Curb NSA on Phone Records

#13

Post by yuhong »

fiatmoney wrote: post #9

Until they ignore it, just like they ignored the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Or, in a secret legal opinion, construe "phone records" to not include mere metadata about whom called whom from where for how long. You can't get around the need to identify the people attempting to circumvent the very explicit restrictions placed upon them and exclude them from the levers of power.

Best solution IMO would to repeal the FISA Amendments Act.

Re: Rand Paul Bill Would Curb NSA on Phone Records

#16

Post by [deleted] »

uvdiv wrote: post #2

Text of the proposed law: "The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution shall not be construed to allow any agency of the United States Government to search the phone records of Americans without a warrant based on probable cause." http://www.paul.senate.gov/files/documents/EAS13699.pdf ("Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013")

[deleted]

Re: Rand Paul Bill Would Curb NSA on Phone Records

#17

Post by [deleted] »

uvdiv wrote: post #2

Text of the proposed law: "The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution shall not be construed to allow any agency of the United States Government to search the phone records of Americans without a warrant based on probable cause." http://www.paul.senate.gov/files/documents/EAS13699.pdf ("Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013")

[deleted]

Re: Rand Paul Bill Would Curb NSA on Phone Records

#18

Post by einhverfr »

uvdiv wrote: post #10
dkulchenko wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that the entire bill? Seems extremely narrow-scoped and with no terms defined. IIRC, the ongoing spying is not even warrantless - they're operating under a broad-scope warrant issued by FISC, so this bill would do absolutely nothing.

Yes, the entire rulemaking part. It's true the Verizon spying had a secret-court FISA warrant, but was that warrant required to have "probable cause"?

Is it more likely than not that looking at all social graph info from phone records over an indefinite period of time will show evidence of terrorist activity? If so, probable cause is met.

What's lacking is particularity which is entirely missing in the text of that law.

Re: Rand Paul Bill Would Curb NSA on Phone Records

#19

Post by gruseom »

canadiancreed wrote: post #15

Funny how stuff like this only starts getting action from politicians once it's politically expidiant to do so.

That's what's significant about these recent disclosures and subsequent wave of interest. Informed people may not have found them surprising, but to say "what's the big deal?" is a mistake. The big deal is the state change in the political discourse.

Re: Rand Paul Bill Would Curb NSA on Phone Records

#20

Post by loteck »

uvdiv wrote: post #2

Text of the proposed law: "The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution shall not be construed to allow any agency of the United States Government to search the phone records of Americans without a warrant based on probable cause." http://www.paul.senate.gov/files/documents/EAS13699.pdf ("Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013")

As has been covered, the government already obtains a FISA warrant in order to "search" the records they are gathering en masse.

Nice try, Rand, but some people still read the text of bills.

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