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Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

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Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#291
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Quite simply, the freedom of hundreds of millions is worth a few terrorist attacks that kill a few dozens. If not, then you should definitely ban cars, as they kill a whopping 33k people a year. In other words, the balance is: let people die free rather than live unfree.

I honestly fail to see how monitoring telecommunication metadata is an infringement of rights. The government has not stopped you from taking any action. I agree that it COULD be used for evil, but that's not a very convincing argument. Many technologies we enjoy and rely on enable evil acts.

I guess you missed the recent news where a governor was exposed for cheating on his wife due to data collected using these systems?

Or, what about the case of qwest where the CEO was coincidentally convicted of insider trading after refusing to comply with this BS?

I have no issue with the government doing analysis and collecting data. I do take issue with them using it for BS political agendas and illegally compelling private companies to participate. And, to be honest, the mere fact that they are allowed to collect this sort of stuff will lead to the other. So, I think it's perfectly reasonable to simply require more transparency and approval in the first place to remove the temptation.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Examples please. I would like to read more. Ohio v. Thomas , 173 U.S. 276 (1898). > Plus, I wasn't suggesting that we create laws that penalize federal officials for how they perform official duties. You specifically proposed making them liable for breach of contract under state law if their official acts while in office did not comport with statements made prior to their election. Which is, exactly, punishing them…

Given your understanding of law, how would you make it for an individual to make false claims during an election campaign (either in speech or in writing) and hold them accountable for actually carrying out the promises and claims they made publicly.

I'd have regular and periodic elections after the first one where the electorate could hold them accountable.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#293
post #36

"I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don't vote. On Election Day, I stay home. I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain. Now, some people like to twist that around. They say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain,' but where's the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up,…

Carlin was a great comedian and I'm a big fan but I'm not about to agree with this simply because the late great George Carlin said it. This is totally backwards and you have to do some mental gymnastics to believe it. In the end, this is what it is, a joke. If you don't vote you have done nothing to even try to elect someone who you, in good faith, believe will do what you deem the right thing. Yeah, politicians are…

How is voting (in the way you describe it) for the sake of voting and supporting a corrupt political system knowing it WILL NOT affect change your duty?

Your duty as a citizen is to support the other members of your society, whether it be by voting in politicians you think will lead the country towards better times for everyone or just following the laws and not interfering with the rights of others. The state and political structure is only a means of choosing organized leadership towards that end.

If voting inevitably leads to a government that blatantly disregards the overall interests of its society, what purpose does voting serve in your "duty as a citizen?"

I personally think that none of us have a right to complain for our own complacency is to blame, but I take issue with the idea that voting is somehow a citizen's duty, even if it's inevitable result is explicit support for violence and corruption.

(yes, "inevitable" is a gross exaggeration, although with these last two presidents it looks quite bleak)

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#294
While I am not a fan of what's been going on in our security sector, and I don't think Obama is living up to the spirit in which he campaigned on this issue (amongst others), it's worth noting that there's an easy weasel way out here: collecting records that would have been generated anyway after the fact is not a "wiretap".

While I am uncomfortable with some of the choices around the wiretapping of the Fox News reporter, I was pleased to note that they had obtained a warrant in that case.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the police could have asked a barkeep for his records Asked. Asked . And he could have said "come back with a warrant". You continue to ignore the distinctions between: * A party voluntarily cooperating with law enforcement. * A party being coerced to cooperate with law enforcement by court order. * A party being coerced to cooperate with law enforcement because law enforcement officers say so. You keep insisting t…

> Asked. Asked. And he could have said "come back with a warrant". But if he said "here they are" or they came back with a warrant or a subpoena, there is nothing you could've done about it. With regards to the NSA accessing call records, there is a warrant from the FISA court (which itself dates to 1978). In case of PRISM, there is voluntary cooperation by the companies involved. There is no indication that third pa…

> But if he said "here they are" or they came back with a warrant or a subpoena, there is nothing you could've done about it.

Assuming lack of contract, absolutely correct. I've never disputed that, I don't think anyone else has, either. Have you been attacking a strawman all this time?

> With regards to the NSA accessing call records, there is a warrant from the FISA court

A very broad warrant. A general warrant. Precisely what the founders forbade in the 4th Amendment.

> In case of PRISM, there is voluntary cooperation by the companies involved.

I decline to speculate on what PRISM does or does not include, as the reporting right now is an unclear mess.

> There is no indication that third parties are being coerced to cooperate just "because law enforcement officers say so."

Since FISA obviously can't be trusted to provide meaningful oversight, I think the general warrant issued for the Verizon data qualifies.

> The government accessing the information without the consent of the third party would be a 4th amendment violation, not of your rights, but of the third party's rights.

I still haven't seen you cite any actual precedent explaining this.

> But that's not happening here.

The general warrant is an obvious 4th Amendment violation, whether it's violating Verizon's rights, their customers', or both.

NSLs are clearly "because law enforcement says so", so now I wonder, on what basis do you defend those?

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By your method of interpretation, this clause gives Congress the right to exercise legislative jurisdiction over D.C., but not the right to build the city. No, it doesn't. Legislative jurisdiction over the territory itself includes the ability to build the city. > You're comparing a power that's mentioned twice in the Constitution The phrase is mentioned twice, but neither is a grant of power (one is a statement of…

> No, it doesn't. Legislative jurisdiction over the territory itself includes the ability to build the city. No more or less than the power to tax for the purpose of providing for the common defense includes the power to actually provide for the common defense.

Which it doesn't, any more than the power to tax for the purpose of general welfare (which is part of the same phrase as the "common defense") gives Congress independent non-taxing power to provide for the general welfare outside of the grants elsewhere in the Constitution. There's quite a lot of conditions, etc., you can apply to liability for taxes, etc., that allow some substantive regulation to be plausibly included under the taxing power, but if you read the purpose limitation of the taxing power to instead be a positive grant of power independent of the taxing power, as you suggest, that one clause alone would shift the federal government under the Constitution into one of universal plenary power with only negative restriction instead of one of specific positive powers, and its quite clear that that was never the intent of that clause (as well as that interpretation being completely inconsistent with the actual words of the clause.)

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#297
post #80

The oddest thing about this is that people seem totally fine that corporations control all of their personal data (and use it to develop new revenue streams), but if the government gets that data (that already exists), then there's a serious problem. What?

I find it deeply alarming that you would even ask this question.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#299
post #36

"I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don't vote. On Election Day, I stay home. I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain. Now, some people like to twist that around. They say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain,' but where's the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up,…

The question is not so much whether you vote (most people will) but what you vote for. The U.S. system of government is deeply rooted in an English common law and constitutional framework. In its U.S. variant, it became a constitutional republic, with the broad idea being that power within the government is divided by design so as to help prevent its abuse. That means a federal system premised on the legal principle…

Thanks, grellas. Nice to see you back here.

I'll defer to your knowledge of law, but what stands out for me is the lack of focus on individual liberties, among both parties. Everything is now couched in the phrase "for the public good", etc. To paraphrase your comment...So, we get liberals saying things like "it takes a village to raise your kids" and conservatives saying "the village must be defended at any cost and spread the democracy." That's over-simplifying things, but my worry has always been that the concept of individual freedom has morphed into some collectivist concept that no one can precisely define and has no limits. It even expresses itself socially within urban areas. Schools are now childcare facilities, and everyone is looking to the government (local, state, federal) to solve the problem.

This is why I vote for those who try to protect the individual's rights. Unfortunately, many times they're looked at as kooks (see Ron Paul, etc.).

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#300
post #36

"I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don't vote. On Election Day, I stay home. I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain. Now, some people like to twist that around. They say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain,' but where's the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up,…

The question is not so much whether you vote (most people will) but what you vote for. The U.S. system of government is deeply rooted in an English common law and constitutional framework. In its U.S. variant, it became a constitutional republic, with the broad idea being that power within the government is divided by design so as to help prevent its abuse. That means a federal system premised on the legal principle…

The present reality of our government's structure is certainly nothing like it claims in its charters and bylaws. America is best described as a post-democratic state. The permanent bureaucracy is the largest and most powerful branch of government and it is never subject to elections. From the Washington Post editorial desk[1]:

"Our carefully constructed system of checks and balances is being negated by the rise of a fourth branch, an administrative state of sprawling departments and agencies that govern with increasing autonomy and decreasing transparency.

For much of our nation’s history, the federal government was quite small. In 1790, it had just 1,000 nonmilitary workers. In 1962, there were 2,515,000 federal employees. Today, we have 2,840,000 federal workers in 15 departments, 69 agencies and 383 nonmilitary sub-agencies.

This exponential growth has led to increasing power and independence for agencies. The shift of authority has been staggering. The fourth branch now has a larger practical impact on the lives of citizens than all the other branches combined.

The rise of the fourth branch has been at the expense of Congress’s lawmaking authority. In fact, the vast majority of “laws” governing the United States are not passed by Congress but are issued as regulations, crafted largely by thousands of unnamed, unreachable bureaucrats. One study found that in 2007, Congress enacted 138 public laws, while federal agencies finalized 2,926 rules, including 61 major regulations.

The judiciary, too, has seen its authority diminished by the rise of the fourth branch. Under Article III of the Constitution, citizens facing charges and fines are entitled to due process in our court system. As the number of federal regulations increased, however, Congress decided to relieve the judiciary of most regulatory cases and create administrative courts tied to individual agencies. The result is that a citizen is 10 times more likely to be tried by an agency than by an actual court. In a given year, federal judges conduct roughly 95,000 adjudicatory proceedings, including trials, while federal agencies complete more than 939,000.

These agency proceedings are often mockeries of due process, with one-sided presumptions and procedural rules favoring the agency. And agencies increasingly seem to chafe at being denied their judicial authority.

Of course, federal agencies officially report to the White House under the umbrella of the executive branch. But in practice, the agencies have evolved into largely independent entities over which the president has very limited control. Only 1 percent of federal positions are filled by political appointees, as opposed to career officials, and on average appointees serve only two years. At an individual level, career officials are insulated from political pressure by civil service rules. There are also entire agencies — including the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Federal Trade Commission and the Federal Communications Commission — that are protected from White House interference."

And some reflections from a government worker[2]:

"The most fascinating thing about working for the government for the last 6 or 7 years has been learning how government really works. Almost no one has any idea how government actually functions.

We spend inordinate amounts of time and money determining who will occupy short-term elected positions in government. Once there, people make a living thinking about what these politicians should be doing. On the other hand, we spend almost no time thinking about who will permanently occupy the bureaucratic positions that are actually responsible for implementing governance.

The vast majority of the employees of the government, like me, are unelected and – for all intents and purposes – cannot be fired. Focusing on the 0.0001% of government employees that get elected (obviously!) misses the remaining 99.9999%. Virtually everyone thinks that its possible to "change" government while maintaining 99.9999% of its employees. This belief is obviously retarded.

I should also note that people are not used to thinking about working environments in which employees cannot be fired. This situation changes the employment dynamic in many ways. Outside of the government, a "boss" is in charge. However, once the power to fire employees is removed, how is it possible for a boss to really be in charge? In a sense, this creates a situation in which the employees are – in reality – in charge.

When we are taught how laws are made, we’re told something like: someone writes a bill, both houses of Congress vote on the bill, if it passes it’s signed by the President and then it’s law at which point it might be interpreted by the courts.

This is correct as far as it goes. However, have you ever asked yourself who that "someone" is who’s writing the bills? Seems like a powerful position, no? That someone is generally unelected and cannot be fired.

The common story also doesn’t go far enough. Regulations are now, by any serious metric, more important than laws. Regulations are written and implemented by agencies, often with little or no judicial oversight. Modern laws aren’t even really laws anymore, they’re just lists of regulations that Congress hopes agencies will implement.

In ancient Rome, the Senate governed until Julius Caesar took power. However, emperors kept the Senate around for a few hundred more years (at least until Diocletian). Are you so sure that the system of government that you believe in hasn’t already been overthrown? Are you like a Roman in the 200s AD who believes in the power of the Senate to appoint an emperor?"

[1]http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-24/opinions/39495...

[2]http://foseti.wordpress.com/2011/02/02/on-government-employm...;

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