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Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

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Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#161
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly fail to see how monitoring telecommunication metadata is an infringement of rights. The government has not stopped you from taking any action. I agree that it COULD be used for evil, but that's not a very convincing argument. Many technologies we enjoy and rely on enable evil acts.

You merely have a failure of imagination. Try reading some books, like 1984, Animal Farm, Fahrenheit 451 and Brave New World, for your education.

These books don't tell me how the government analyzing communication metadata is an infringement of rights.

"Imagine a world where the government assigns you a number when you are born. Where you have to register with the government when you turn 18. Where each year you must report detailed financial information to the government. It's like 1984!"

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#162
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly fail to see how monitoring telecommunication metadata is an infringement of rights. The government has not stopped you from taking any action. I agree that it COULD be used for evil, but that's not a very convincing argument. Many technologies we enjoy and rely on enable evil acts.

You merely have a failure of imagination. Try reading some books, like 1984, Animal Farm, Fahrenheit 451 and Brave New World, for your education.

[deleted]

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#163

Why is it not possible to prosecute politicians for fraud or at least sue them in a court of law for making fraudulent claims, possibly via a class action suit? If an advertiser promised that their product does X when it obviously does not, then that is essentially fraud, and I have the right to sue on those grounds because I paid for their services with my money. In the case of politicians, I give them votes based o…

The way to get back at politicians for lying is to vote others in office. Unfortunately your average idiot is so bereft of political awareness that their voting decisions are based on those banging the most pots and pans and getting the most coverage on MSNBC...so nothing ever really changes. It's one shill against the other. Bipartisanship needs to be broken in this country. Both parties need to be dissolved immedia…

Being able to vote others into office hardly constitutes moral hazard.

Lying to the American people as a politician for the sake of gaining power presents a very real clear and present danger to the United States of America. If we can't rely on a politician to at least make a good faith effort to carry out their promises, then the entire basis of a representative government, a fundamental concept upon which our entire union is based, is essentially nullified. I know this sounds naïve, but this is a very real conversation we should be having because it is at the root of many of the problems with politics these days and many problems can just be solved by introducing moral hazard when votes are at state and holding the politician and anyone that follows him into office (as a cabinet member) accountable.

Lying is fine with me. Lying for the purposes of getting votes from citizens, should fall under the clear and present danger clause and should be prosecutable just like yelling fire in a crowded theatre. If a politician wants to lie while outside an election cycle, that's fine, but from the moment they begin making an intentional effort to be voted into office, until the time they are voted into office, they should not be allowed to lie in forums and messages targeted towards a voter they are trying to court. Doing so, should be prosecutable.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#164
post #36

"I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don't vote. On Election Day, I stay home. I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain. Now, some people like to twist that around. They say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain,' but where's the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up,…

If you don't like it, then you should become a politician and start fixing it yourself. It's easy to complain, it's hard to do something about it.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#165
post #80

The oddest thing about this is that people seem totally fine that corporations control all of their personal data (and use it to develop new revenue streams), but if the government gets that data (that already exists), then there's a serious problem. What?

I just love watching people complain about government surveillance while accessing Comcast Internet with Google Chrome on Microsoft Windows on an HP computer that was shipped by FedEx after being purchased from Amazon over a Motorola phone on a Verizon 4G network with a VISA debit card from FDIC-backed Wells Fargo that was issued after a credit check from Equifax, Experian or TransUnion, using currency controlled by…

What? Because we rely on a massive infrastructure we aren't allowed to complain about government surveillance?

Also not sure how prices for hard drives got brought up. What relevance does cheap disk space have on this?

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#166
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're begging the question. Why are the choices the way they are? You see a status quo where neither major party cares about electronic privacy. Is it because there is a vast conspiracy between media and government to only present these two viewpoints? Is it because huge amounts of money go into getting people to support NSA surveillance? Or is it because opposing NSA surveillance is not an issue that reliably yield…

> Why should politicians in a democracy cater to the pet issues of an ideological minority? From a human and Constitutional rights point of view, they have an obligation to respect the views of those ideological minorities when their main agenda is defending their rights (right to privacy, free speech, or whatever it may be). A pure democratic system is little more than a (usually peaceful) mob rule, but in a represe…

> they have an obligation to respect the views of those ideological minorities when their main agenda is defending their rights

Ideological minorities don't get to make up "rights" and then demand the government defend them. The government has the obligation to defend free speech rights, even against the wishes of the majority, because there is ancient recognition of that right along with explicit adoption of a broad statement of that right in the Constitution.

But, there is no such thing when it comes to "privacy". See: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/rightof... ("The U. S. Constitution contains no express right to privacy. The Bill of Rights, however, reflects the concern of James Madison and other framers for protecting specific aspects of privacy, such as the privacy of beliefs (1st Amendment), privacy of the home against demands that it be used to house soldiers (3rd Amendment), privacy of the person and possessions as against unreasonable searches (4th Amendment), and the 5th Amendment's privilege against self-incrimination, which provides protection for the privacy of personal information.")

There is nothing in the Constitution that says "you have a right to privacy", and it's really very difficult to extend one of the explicit provisions to get you to something that would prohibit the government's collection of information that you voluntarily put "out in the world" by giving it to entities like Google or Facebook, or information (like call records) that aren't even yours but rather information about you gathered by a private company. You have to resort to something worse than Griswald's "penumbras" to get from the 4th amendment, which concerns the sanctity of one's house and physical person, to such a broad privacy "right."

There's not even intellectual consensus on the issue. Academics disagree vigorously about the appropriate level of "privacy rights" and foreign liberal democracies often collect as much or more information than the U.S. does.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#167
post #64
post #36

"I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don't vote. On Election Day, I stay home. I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain. Now, some people like to twist that around. They say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain,' but where's the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up,…

George Carlin is (was) a right fool. The whole problem is that people don't have enough control over the government. Not voting only allows those who would have control over you to have more power. Even a protest vote or a third party vote is worth more than no vote.

Even if you accept the idea that your vote has some tiny marginal effect on the outcome (which, in the electoral college, is usually not the case), you still have to weigh the opportunity cost of voting (and of the time spent deciding who to vote for) against what you would have been able to do with that time had you not bothered. You could spend more time with your family, with friends, learn a new skill, enjoy a more peaceful state of mind by not feeling obligated to follow the news 24/7, and more. Which of these do you think will most improve the state of your life? Especially when you factor in the probability that the person you vote for will renege on many of his or her promises?

Local elections are a more worthwhile, due to the increased influence of even a single voice and the fact that they are usually decided by popular vote.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#168
post #156
post #110

"Because if we are willing to work for it, and fight for it, and believe in it, then I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless; this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal; this was the moment when we ended a war and…

"and restored our image as the last, best hope on earth." No joke. These are not idle words. I grew up in Eastern Europe looking up to the great US of A, where hippies stopped a war and abolished the draft, where people can sue the government and win, where privacy and human rights are enshrined in the Constitution, which more than 200 hundred years ago prompted other nations to adopt something similar many years lat…

It's just the nerve that gets me. "We can tell our children this day"

--stop it right there. That's bullshit, and he knows it. A president can't do anything without Congress, and when Congress is crap, nothing but a downward spiral is going to be the outlook.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#169
At some level this has to bring up the issue of voting age into the fold. I'm sorry but I know few 18 year olds who could be trusted to run their lives, much less make sensible, informed and intelligent voting decisions. They simply don't have enough education and life experience to understand what they are voting for.

Is there an argument for producing better vote quality by raising the minimum voting age to somewhere in the 24 to 30 range?

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#170
post #36

"I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don't vote. On Election Day, I stay home. I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain. Now, some people like to twist that around. They say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain,' but where's the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up,…

The question is not so much whether you vote (most people will) but what you vote for.

The U.S. system of government is deeply rooted in an English common law and constitutional framework. In its U.S. variant, it became a constitutional republic, with the broad idea being that power within the government is divided by design so as to help prevent its abuse. That means a federal system premised on the legal principle that governmental power resides by default elsewhere than with the centralized authority - meaning, the federal authority is strictly limited to the powers expressly granted to it by the constitution, as implemented through three branches of government (executive, legislative, judicial) that check and balance each other even with respect to the limited power resident within that federal authority. Any power not expressly granted to the federal authority belongs to the states and to the people. On top of it all, the very notion of government as a compact derived from the foundational principle that it is the individual, not the state, that has inalienable rights that cannot be impaired by any government, no matter how benign its stated motives or noble its stated goals. All in all, this began as a bottom-up system with a tremendous respect for the rights of the individual and a tremendous distrust for the power of the state.

While that was the theory, the practice did not often match and major faults such as the slave system and the legally sanctioned taking of lands from the "pagan" residents who preceded the European migrants led to many convulsions by which, in time, the federal authority itself - which had often been the cause of the abuses - came to be seen as the cure for the problems and therefore came to be seen as an authority that should be given broad, largely unchecked, and very vague grants of power with which to accomplish its newly-defined goals. Couple this with the move from a formerly isolationist America (Monroe Doctrine, etc.) to one that saw its role in the world as that of an exporter of democracy and defender of a democratic system of government around the globe, and you perforce have a massive further expansion of centralized authority via the build up of a massive military, in contrast to the time of George Washington where even the very idea of having a standing army was hugely controversial and defense was handled mostly by loosely formed militias organized by the colonies and then the states.

And so, two-plus centuries later, you have a system in which modern conservatives ask for virtually unlimited authority by which to achieve largely military aims and by which modern liberals ask for virtually unlimited authority by which to achieve social aims. With that massive build up of federal power, we all wake up one day and find that the central government has become rather full of itself, arrogant, and unaccountable, with those in charge - of either of the major parties - now quite comfortable with the idea that the rights of the individual are far subservient to those of the state, at least as seen by those in charge. And we all wonder how this happened.

I see this as a system that is wildly out of control in its expansionist aims at the expense of the individual and, given the historical arc, don't hold out a lot of hope that the problem can be reversed unless people's thinking changes significantly.

Yes, by all means vote, but do vote with discernment and with a sharp eye to those who would protect the rights of the individual and not based on the cliches of the day regarding the modern political parties. Maybe that will in time help to turn it around. In any case, that is how I see it.

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