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Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

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Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#111

Post by TamDenholm »

monsterix wrote: post #5

Chhi... Compare it with the words and deeds of Abraham Lincoln 250 years ago: "If slavery isn't wrong, then nothing is wrong." [1][2] There is a stark change in quality of leaders available today. There is so little correlation between words spoken and execution. [1] http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trt027.html [2] http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/images/ltoh1.jpg

Yeah i'd like politicians to say less and mean more, but unfortunately you cant get elected unless you pander to every interest group, make sure you're liked enough to be able to "have a beer" with the common man and be connected enough in corporate America to get donations and endorsements from interest groups.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#112

Post by flexd »

edw519 wrote: post #36

"I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don't vote. On Election Day, I stay home. I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain. Now, some people like to twist that around. They say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain,' but where's the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up,…

Don't you usually have the option to submit a 'I do not think any of these people should lead our country'-vote? We can do that in Norway.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#113

Post by bsenftner »

arcadeparade wrote: post #81
monsterix wrote: post #5

Chhi... Compare it with the words and deeds of Abraham Lincoln 250 years ago: "If slavery isn't wrong, then nothing is wrong." [1][2] There is a stark change in quality of leaders available today. There is so little correlation between words spoken and execution. [1] http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trt027.html [2] http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/images/ltoh1.jpg

Obama isn't a leader, he's a product, advertised in a way no different from toothpaste. Chomsky speaks: >Political managers are well aware that on issues the public often disagrees sharply with the architects of policy. Accordingly, electoral campaigns avoid issues in favor of slogans, oratorical flourishes, personalities, and gossip. Every year, the advertising industry gives an award for the best marketing campaign…

Every president since Reagan has been this type of product.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#114

Post by notdrunkatall »

jbindel wrote: post #46

Is the headline trying to mislead? A) Phone records are not wiretaps. B) They weren't warrantless. However, secret warrants can be misused, and gathering data on domestic calls needs further scrutiny than this collection of every call.

No, it's not, you're apparently just not fully aware of what's going on.

They don't only have access to phone records; they also have access to our communications, and they have had that access for at least the last 6 years without a warrant, not even one from a FISA court.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#115

Post by Glyptodon »

ihsw wrote: post #72
astine wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

George Carlin is (was) a right fool. The whole problem is that people don't have enough control over the government. Not voting only allows those who would have control over you to have more power. Even a protest vote or a third party vote is worth more than no vote.

> Even a protest vote or a third party vote is worth more than no vote. Actually, it's not. The US election process operates under the Electoral College[1], so a state majority vote changes all votes to that majority vote (eg: Democrats win majority in Illinois, so all votes in that state end up voting for Democrats in the presidential election). The disparity between the electoral vote and the popular vote is usuall…

Wrong basis. By voting for someone who won't win you can claim that you tried and failed to improve things, and that it was everyone else (who voted for the winner/mainstream candidate) who causes all our problems and is responsible.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#116

Post by VikingCoder »

jmagoon wrote: post #80

The oddest thing about this is that people seem totally fine that corporations control all of their personal data (and use it to develop new revenue streams), but if the government gets that data (that already exists), then there's a serious problem. What?

I just love watching people complain about government surveillance while accessing Comcast Internet with Google Chrome on Microsoft Windows on an HP computer that was shipped by FedEx after being purchased from Amazon over a Motorola phone on a Verizon 4G network with a VISA debit card from FDIC-backed Wells Fargo that was issued after a credit check from Equifax, Experian or TransUnion, using currency controlled by the Federal Reserve System by someone who went to a for-profit college with a Pell Grant.

Did I mention they're complaining on a website, owned by another corporation? Which more often than not sells ad space (and user information!) to dozens or hundreds of other corporations?

It's comforting to think that these companies don't know everything about you. But right now, a 4 TB hard drive can be bought from NCIX for $159.99. And right now there are 313.9 million US citizens.

That means, for $159.99, you could store 14,011 bytes of information per every US citizen. If you don't want the government to look over a company's shoulder at data they've collected, maybe we should make it illegal for companies to collect that information in the first place.

I clock the United States Constitution at 19 kB in EPUB format, according to Project Gutenberg. That means that you wouldn't even need two 4 TB hard drives to store an entire copy of the Constitution, for every single US Citizen.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#117

Post by hga »

freyr wrote: post #6

"My job this morning is to be so persuasive...that a light will shine through that window, a beam of light will come down upon you, you will experience an epiphany, and you will suddenly realize that you must go to the polls and vote for Barack," In other words, say whatever needs to be said to get elected. Worry about the details later. Or not.

To quote Richard "Wretchard" Fernandez (http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2013/06/05/toward-a-more...):

"You can’t vote for a Messiah and not expect a theocracy."

And if this was a joke, the only reason it is funny is because so many have treated him like a Messiah. Of course, when he was saying in all seriousness things like "This was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal" the confusion is understandable....

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#118

Post by mpyne »

mchusma wrote: post #69
leephillips wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are very few people in the history of people who will look presentable standing next to Lincoln. His combination of moral strength and intellectual fortitude is unsurpassed, and probably unsurpassable. I was gullible enough to vote for Obama, who seems to enjoy making a sport out of seeing how many people he can disappoint as deeply as possible.

Interesting. I've always thought Lincoln (and this quote supports the idea) that he was so obsessed with keeping the union together that he was willing to actively go against morality. For example, keepin the union together is of dubious intent by the people of that time. States petitioned to join, why shouldn't they get out? Seems reasonable to me. If I join a club I expect I can leave. Ok the other hand, he did thi…

> States petitioned to join, why shouldn't they get out? Seems reasonable to me.

There's no such thing as a "Union" at all if each state could simply walk out when the Federal government passed a law the state didn't like, or the country elected a President the state didn't like.

It's also of severe dubious moral quality when the whole reason you secede is merely because you see a threat to your system of institutionalized abuse, killing, slavery, and racial injustice.

You shouldn't get to simply join when the going is good for you, and stab the rest of the nation in the back only when the going is bad.

But with that said, you're right that Pres. Lincoln is not exactly the bright shining example of civil liberties that the other comments here have made him out to be. He did far worse things than Pres. Obama in his quest for national security...

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#119

Post by baddox »

astine wrote: post #64
edw519 wrote: post #36

"I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don't vote. On Election Day, I stay home. I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain. Now, some people like to twist that around. They say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain,' but where's the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up,…

George Carlin is (was) a right fool. The whole problem is that people don't have enough control over the government. Not voting only allows those who would have control over you to have more power. Even a protest vote or a third party vote is worth more than no vote.

Voting empirically does not provide enough control over the government to justify even traveling to the polling location.

Re: Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me (2008)

#120

Post by baddox »

joering2 wrote: post #39
edw519 wrote: post #36

"I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don't vote. On Election Day, I stay home. I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain. Now, some people like to twist that around. They say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain,' but where's the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up,…

> I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don't vote. On Election Day, I stay home. You are not solving the problem you just ignoring it. And I am not sure what's worse...

He doesn't say he is solving the problem. He merely says that he removes personal responsibility for the problem.
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