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Are coders worth it?

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Re: Are coders worth it?

#291

Post by LordHumungous »

bokglobule wrote: post #178
willholloway wrote: post #160

Am I the only one that wants coders to stop feeling guilty and devaluing themselves? The plumber analogy is off base. Web development is incredibly more complex than plumbing in a home. Importantly, web development changes extremely fast while plumbing is largely the same as it has been for decades. The web and the developers that have created all of the sites and apps on top of it has added tremendous value to our e…

As a developer who also knows plumbing (and other trades), I'd beg to differ. When I talk to neighbors and friends, most of whom are highly "technical", they look at me in disbelief when I suggest they resolve a plumbing (or carpentry or mechanical) issue on their own. I get the "I have no idea where to start", or "I don't have any tools", and so on. It's not a lack of available information, it's the fear, in many ca…

I'd like to point out that a good plumber can make almost as much as a web developer. I know a plumber who makes $90k. People gladly pay premium money for a good plumber for the same reason they will pay for a good developer: the costs and headache they save by making sure the job is done right are well worth a high upfront cost.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#292

Post by randomdata »

willholloway wrote: post #160

Am I the only one that wants coders to stop feeling guilty and devaluing themselves? The plumber analogy is off base. Web development is incredibly more complex than plumbing in a home. Importantly, web development changes extremely fast while plumbing is largely the same as it has been for decades. The web and the developers that have created all of the sites and apps on top of it has added tremendous value to our e…

Good development is hard, but so is just about every job.

I've been attempting to farm, a job that popular media will have you believe any slack-jawed yokel can do, for the past few years. It has been quite an eye-opening experience, making programming seem like child's play by comparison. If any slack-jawed yokel can do a job that is more difficult than development, where does that leave developers?

You are right that we should value ourselves and feel good about our accomplishments. Being able to develop software is a pretty significant one. But we should not feel the need to minimize other professions to make ourselves feel that way. They are doing things that are just as complicated and important, and they should feel equally good about those accomplishments.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#293

Post by einhverfr »

jacques_chester wrote: post #279
einhverfr wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem though is that these are huge fields of thought and also that the very contentious. Ethics for example is usually defined to be asking the question of "what is good?" Obviously defining "what is good" is an undertaking which leads different people in different directions. I take the approach of saying "what is good is what is conducive to human flourishing." This is largely an Aristotelian approach (and s…

Hayek is basically saying that seeing ends or purpose in an emergent system is a mistake. It's like seeing a purpose in the weather. It just is .

So people participate in economic systems for no reason?

Re: Are coders worth it?

#294

Post by dschiptsov »

sologoub wrote: post #153

This article seems to be missing a parallel that was drawn previously many times. PG has written on the subject, and so have others. The closest parallel we can draw between "coders" and the distant past, is that with the artisans of the middle ages. Aside from the landowning nobles, the artisan class was probably the closest thing to a true middle class. Many advanced to upper-middle and later became the industrial…

Software engineering has not yet gone through a true manufacturing disruption. We cannot put software on the kind of assembly line/stamping process...

Such a naive view.) The whole Java ecosystem was especially marketed as a "industry standard" way of creating a "coding sweatshops". All you need is coding and testing teams, and a bureaucratic process (such as Scrum) on top of it.

With very rare exceptions of some OSS or in-house projects (Google, FB) most of software industry consists of such sweatshops which are almost an assembly lines which produce bloatware that mere passes most of tests.

Have you ever seen so-called Enterprise Software? ERPs? Web-portals?) Or take a look at the bloatware MS produces - these all products of such software-manufacturing processes.

Now about an artisan analogy. True (gifted) artists are extremely rare nowadays as thew were in the ancient times. Just take a look at the few examples:

- the requests module for Python. It is such a rare example of clean, idiomatic, human-readable Programming (not mere coding) that it could be considered as an art of programming. How many other modules programmed with such craftsmanship are around?

- nginx and redis are the example of the art of Software Engineering. They are works of art because of an approach and personal involvement of its authors.

- Plan9 team, FreeBSD's and OpenBSD's core teams, the author Gambit-C, authors of MIT Scheme, Symbolics Inc., the authors of Emacs are examples of a teams of gifted programmers.

If you want to see the examples of PG's "painters" - these people are. They are artisans of our craft. OK, there might be few hundreds more of such craftsman in the past (who created Lisps and other marvels) but it is mere 1% of all the field.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#295

Post by einhverfr »

drewcoo wrote: post #266
sillysaurus wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software is design. We can't put design on any kind of assembly line / stamping process. This seems like it will remain true for a long time.

Every kind of engineering is design and can't be put on an assembly line. Engineers design assembly lines. They don't work on them.

Now, I want a T-shirt that says "Google Code is My Assembly Line" and has a link to one of my projects there.

The fact is we design and make the archetypes. These get mass-produced by computers.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#296

Post by oscilloscope »

finnh wrote: post #260
nilkn wrote: post #258

Oh boy, I have a lot of comments here, most of them in agreement with the article but not all. According to all the anecdotal knowledge I have, my conclusion has been that currently software engineering and chemical engineering are tied for the locally optimal career choice for those with a four year degree or less. While some college graduates (or dropouts) will go become billionaires, as a general rule, it is quite…

If I could upvote this twice, I would. Software engineering is a great profession, but it's certainly not overpaid (well, the bad ones are overpaid, but the good ones are often underpaid). There are many relatively straightforward routes to more $$; most people just don't know about them.

Where can I find more about these straightforward routes?

Re: Are coders worth it?

#297

Post by kaspm »

shoyer wrote: post #274
nilkn wrote: post #258

Oh boy, I have a lot of comments here, most of them in agreement with the article but not all. According to all the anecdotal knowledge I have, my conclusion has been that currently software engineering and chemical engineering are tied for the locally optimal career choice for those with a four year degree or less. While some college graduates (or dropouts) will go become billionaires, as a general rule, it is quite…

Just because there's a clearly defined path to making a lot of money in a high prestige job doesn't mean it's easy or that everyone can pull it off. The best way to start an "upper class career" is to be born into the upper class. Good luck getting into finance or consulting if you didn't go to a top tier university. And it's not small matter -- even if you have the right background -- to get that job at McKinsey or…

| put in long hours and do very good work

And in addition, you have to have the mental fortitude for this kind of career. Despite not being "well-known" there is an intense amount of competition from a group of the most ambitious people in the world. Being able to compete at that level is insanely hard, much harder than than being a software engineer.

I have had the fortune in my life to attempt both careers. I went to a top-tier undergrad, and got a job as an associate consultant at a strategy firm directly out of college. And guess what? It was terrible. Working every day from 9am-2am 6 days a week, no time for friends, family, hobbies, fun of any kind. After a few years of that life, I went right back to doing software engineering. Would I be richer now had I stayed in it? Probably. But happier? no.

I think it's important to remember in the end that very very few people in the world do work that matters, whether they make "something" or not. I think about this a lot while listening to stories about 14 year old Bangladeshi factory workers making $3 a month to support their families and being padlocked inside factories that are on fire so our clothes are cheaper.

We are all very lucky to be born into a country that gives us the opportunity to do comfortable jobs and complain about them freely. Use work to make enough money do the things you care about outside of work, and for god sakes, travel.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#298

Post by Paul_D_Santana »

kaspm wrote: post #297
shoyer wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because there's a clearly defined path to making a lot of money in a high prestige job doesn't mean it's easy or that everyone can pull it off. The best way to start an "upper class career" is to be born into the upper class. Good luck getting into finance or consulting if you didn't go to a top tier university. And it's not small matter -- even if you have the right background -- to get that job at McKinsey or…

| put in long hours and do very good work And in addition, you have to have the mental fortitude for this kind of career. Despite not being "well-known" there is an intense amount of competition from a group of the most ambitious people in the world. Being able to compete at that level is insanely hard, much harder than than being a software engineer. I have had the fortune in my life to attempt both careers. I went…

I like the way you think, especially with regards to happiness, and I would love to hear more about this part:

> and for god sakes, travel

I'm very fortunate to have a position where I work exactly 40 hours (some of which is programming). This has allowed me the freedom to pursue other activities, such as meeting and developing an extremely deep relationship with my girlfriend, being an active participant in my church, completing Financial Peace University, joining a local Toastmasters club, and joining CrossFit and getting in the best shape of my life.*

However, I have not yet done any major traveling. Why do you put such high importance on it?

I'm not asking why traveling is generally good, but why _you_ specifically are recommending it so highly.

* [Edit: After reading this, it sounds like bragging but sincerely that was not my goal. I just wanted to say I totally understand and agree about what you said with regards to work and happiness.]

Re: Are coders worth it?

#299

Post by flyinRyan »

Oh how I despise the sentiment that if some group with an important function gets low pay that this could only mean other groups with a "less important" function are overpaid. The only people that are overpaid are executives. The rest of us are under-paid (with some exceptions). Yes, even developers. Look how much money a trader makes if they do well. Now compare that with a Quant who will do consistently better and make the company much more money.

If you feel like pulling others down into your pit, reach out for executives, not other working class people. FFS.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#300

Post by _progger_ »

"money, perks, freedom, respect"

Err... CEOs/CTOs/CFOs have that. You should add "reasonably minimal competitive" in front of each word when talking about web devs at an average company.

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