Are coders worth it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are coders worth it?

#191

Post by digitalsushi » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 5:55 PM UTC

gambomb wrote: post #55

mseebach wrote: post #12

I think the point about code being cool is rather shortsighted: Code has only been cool to anything like mainstream youth for maybe five or ten years. In US high school as an exchange student in 1999, the computer science class/team/whatever most certainly wasn't "cool" - and this was on the tail of the .com boom. In high school in Denmark 99-02, I saw the first general recognition that while "being able to make webs…

I think you may be overestimating the capacity of the education system to change. I'm now a year removed from High School, but in my class of 350 there were maybe 10 who could program proficiently. Only two (myself and a friend) knew what linux was. I would say it wasn't treated as "cool", but certainly regarded with a wierd respect.

I don't accept that anyone can know how familiar everyone else is of a thing. It's possible that you're perfectly correct, but how you arrived at this was assumption.

What if, out of the 348/350 other students you claim were unaware of linux, there were more than 0 of them that were happy to play with linux on their own without broadcasting it to you?

My point in this is that hobbies may seem unique, and it's great that we can motivate the growth of our identity in this, but to take it to the extent that you and your friend were the only kids that knew linux is blissful ignorance. No offense to you, it's just your assumption that I feel compelled to respond to.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#192

Post by nekopa » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 6:01 PM UTC

bennyg wrote: post #164

sologoub wrote: post #153

This article seems to be missing a parallel that was drawn previously many times. PG has written on the subject, and so have others. The closest parallel we can draw between "coders" and the distant past, is that with the artisans of the middle ages. Aside from the landowning nobles, the artisan class was probably the closest thing to a true middle class. Many advanced to upper-middle and later became the industrial…

Sure some parts of software will become manufactured and mass produced - I mean that's the case today. How many libraries do you use? However, software is still an intellectual, out of thin air, endeavor. It requires thought to create new and make work with existing circumstances. You aren't melting metal into a mold to make a tangible object. You are literally fusing thoughts and intellectual processes together to d…

But how long will this idea of 'fusing thoughts and intellectual processes' remain the sole domain of humans? Besides from some creative leaps, a lot of this has to do with logic: knowing what works where and when.

I'm working on an idea tied to literate programming where someone can tell a story of what they want a program to do, put it in a wiki, and then programmers can edit the wiki to add in the actual software to make the program work. How hard would it be to use NLP parsing, feed it into something using the priciples from BDD, take something that turns that into UML the run it through a code generator and you have an MVP. Software engineers may then end up like manufacturing engineers in that their job is to tweak and fine tune the output. But even then that part of the job may fall to ML which recognizes similar patterns between software implementation and optimum utilization (there are only so many ways to write a user login page on a web app for example)

I think thinking will never become mass-produced, but Mass-producing turning thoughts into software may happen within my lifetime.

Edit: missed out the main point from my last sentence.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#193

Post by damoncali » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 6:07 PM UTC

mediaman wrote: post #180

gvb wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We cannot put software on the kind of assembly line/stamping process we can with say door hinges or other metal works that used to require a skilled blacksmith. That doesn't mean it won't happen some day. Stamping out software is what your Windows/OSX/linux installation CD/DVD is. Microsoft is making a lot of money stamping out (figuratively nowadays) copies of Windows. Software engineering is the equivalent of the m…

This is a great point. Because software has near-zero replication costs, the "manufacturing" process has no good analog for software industry. The manufacturing industry is supported by an army of engineers in a wide variety of specialties. In fact, manufacturing, in some ways, is starting to look a little more similar to software, because the non-material costs of production are falling (automation replaces direct l…

However, like a draftsperson or an engineer who refuses to learn Solidworks, the more powerful software will be a negative for those who cannot, or choose not to, evolve their skill set above a more basic level.

That line jogged loose a memory that might cause some thought in other so I'll share:

I used be an aerospace engineer. Typically, what we called * designers* were technical people who were very good at working with fancy 3D parametric, version controlled CAD systems. They could come up with mechanical designs and drawings at a rapid pace and good results. They rarely had engineering degrees and leaned a bit on the technical knowledge of the engineers when they needed to.

But we had one guy who refused to learn the new systems and instead insisted on using old, some might say obsolete) 2D CAD that he was familiar with. He happend to have an engineering degree, but most wouldn't guess because 9 out of 10 people picked him out as a dead ringer for Charlie Manson. He was loud, sometimes dirty, dressed more like a biker than an engineer, and he was rude and stubborn. I liked the guy. I really did. But I think I held a rare view, as most people found him offensive and crude. Some refused to work with him. "I'm not changing that" was almost a calling card of his.

Yet in spite of all of that, he designed a frighteningly high percentage of the space hardware that actually flew. His time was in demand and he produced easily as much as the designers with more modern tools. I never counted, but I'd bet he produced more than they did. And it was good because he was brilliantly skilled at the real task at hand.

So in the end, the technology did not matter - the man did.

I don't bring that up to argue- just think there's something worth thinking about.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#194

Post by mahyarm » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 6:13 PM UTC

Are executives worth it? "In today's world, executives & managers have it all: money, perks, freedom, authority & respect. But is there value in what we do?"

Re: Are coders worth it?

#195

Post by venutip » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 6:14 PM UTC

oblique63 wrote: post #171

willholloway wrote: post #160

Am I the only one that wants coders to stop feeling guilty and devaluing themselves? The plumber analogy is off base. Web development is incredibly more complex than plumbing in a home. Importantly, web development changes extremely fast while plumbing is largely the same as it has been for decades. The web and the developers that have created all of the sites and apps on top of it has added tremendous value to our e…

This isn't a negative, self-worth thing, it's a perspective thing. What the OP here is describing, is exactly the mentality that leads to this nonsense: http://programmingisterrible.com/post/50421878989/come-here-... A lot of people would agree that empathy is one of the large components of what makes us "human", and that's rather vague, but it does make evolutionary sense for why empathy is useful for societal progr…

> I think the problem is that the OP is labeling what he's arguing with as "web development" when it's really more of a subset of startup culture that he's referring to, not all web developers

You hit the nail on the head. I'm a web developer, and what I do is build websites and other online solutions for non-profits. They range from the very small, to the very large (many millions of dollars in budget). I'm paid less because most of our clients pay less, but I'm happy with my contribution to society, and that's what matters to me.

It's not the job, it's the context in which that job is performed.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#196

Post by nileshtrivedi » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 6:16 PM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #129

NickPollard wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If you ask people in the street whether we need another Facebook, most would say no Don't take this as a disagreement with your whole comment (it isn't), but one trap that people fall into is equating what people say they want with what they actually want - at least as expressed by what they are willing to pay for , which is what shareholders and VCs care about. There was an article on HN a day or two ago about ho…

While I think you are right that there is a difference between what people say they want and what they actually want -- I would suggest that there is also a difference between what people actually want , and what people demonstrate with their behavior, what they actually do . What people do is not neccesarily what they want either! For all sorts of reasons. Poor self-control, costs/risks (financial/social/psychologic…

Very interesting. However, I think by differentiating what people "actually want" from what they do, you have made it completely inaccessible. How can we possibly find out what people actually want if it's different from both (1) what they say and (2) what they do? In other words, is there any way you can validate your thesis? I suspect you can't. You will have to fall back to what they say they want.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#197

Post by nileshtrivedi » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 6:20 PM UTC

nileshtrivedi wrote: post #196

jrochkind1 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think you are right that there is a difference between what people say they want and what they actually want -- I would suggest that there is also a difference between what people actually want , and what people demonstrate with their behavior, what they actually do . What people do is not neccesarily what they want either! For all sorts of reasons. Poor self-control, costs/risks (financial/social/psychologic…

Very interesting. However, I think by differentiating what people "actually want" from what they do, you have made it completely inaccessible. How can we possibly find out what people actually want if it's different from both (1) what they say and (2) what they do? In other words, is there any way you can validate your thesis? I suspect you can't. You will have to fall back to what they say they want .

One possible way to validate your point is by asking people if they ever regret their actions. However, I think this isn't robust. Regretting my past action now doesn't mean that I didn't want it then.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#198

Post by super-serial » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 6:23 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #166

Once you've learned a complex skill, it can seem very easy to you - and you no longer see that it's not-easy to the point of impossible for many others. Most people don't have the talent or patience to learn it at all. Besides software, I play guitar. I've played guitar for over 30 years now. I long ago passed a level of mastery on the instrument, and my attention is focused on expression rather than technique. When…

I always use the chess analogy.

Some people can play chess every day for years and never get past being an advanced beginner. That's over 90% of the population whether it's Chess or programming. It's a very intense mental exercise... even if the author of the article thinks it's just "playing."

To get a job programming you have to be better than a mid-level chess player and demonstrate it by 'winning' projects that are relatively difficult. Even by doing that you still have to jump through tons of hoops to get a decent job. The types of perks and jobs the author is talking about sounds like a fantasy to me when I've worked nothing but soul-sucking .NET corporate jobs, and web contract work where I'm always worried about getting paid on time.

For me it's come to the point where I'd rather work a part-time job (I'm basically a Janitor) and do programming/startups on the side... than have more soul-sucking code-slave work. So it's almost like this guy lives in an alternate universe to me.

I'm trying to make it easier for me though... lately I'm taking a bunch of Nootropics (racetams, fish oil, various amino acids) and I'm getting back on track. I have a friend who takes Adderall every day to keep up with his job. It's great that the author does not have to do these things and everything just falls into place for him... but at least have some perspective that for many people this shit is not easy.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#199

Post by thedufer » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 6:26 PM UTC

bokglobule wrote: post #178

willholloway wrote: post #160

Am I the only one that wants coders to stop feeling guilty and devaluing themselves? The plumber analogy is off base. Web development is incredibly more complex than plumbing in a home. Importantly, web development changes extremely fast while plumbing is largely the same as it has been for decades. The web and the developers that have created all of the sites and apps on top of it has added tremendous value to our e…

As a developer who also knows plumbing (and other trades), I'd beg to differ. When I talk to neighbors and friends, most of whom are highly "technical", they look at me in disbelief when I suggest they resolve a plumbing (or carpentry or mechanical) issue on their own. I get the "I have no idea where to start", or "I don't have any tools", and so on. It's not a lack of available information, it's the fear, in many ca…

Is this really the case? Growing up, my family did pretty much all of their own plumbing/carpentry/electrical work, so I'm kind of surprised that that's not the norm. Its honestly not that hard to figure out, and its also pretty easy to make sure that messing up doesn't do any long-term damage.

The extreme of this was when we spent a year or so finishing our basement; everything from framing to wiring/plumbing to painting was done on weekends by us. I wouldn't say that I "know" any of those trades, but I know how to look up instructions on the internet or ask someone at Home Depot.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#200

Post by calinet6 » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 6:29 PM UTC

mercutio2 wrote: post #161

calinet6 wrote: post #84

I think this is a good observation, that the interest in this market as a whole creates a dearth of really poor business ideas. I think this is natural. But if you're in a startup incubator especially, you have to remember that those aren't the cream of the crop. They're people who will most likely fail, and the world will be better if they do (if the world wanted their product, and they're the right ones to build it…

"Dearth" means scarcity. I had to read your post over a few times to understand that you (probably) meant an abundance of poor business ideas. An enjoyable word to use, though!

Oops! You're absolutely right. Just had a word meaning dyslexia moment.