Are coders worth it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are coders worth it?

#181

Post by cardine » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 5:14 PM UTC

bennyg wrote: post #164

sologoub wrote: post #153

This article seems to be missing a parallel that was drawn previously many times. PG has written on the subject, and so have others. The closest parallel we can draw between "coders" and the distant past, is that with the artisans of the middle ages. Aside from the landowning nobles, the artisan class was probably the closest thing to a true middle class. Many advanced to upper-middle and later became the industrial…

Sure some parts of software will become manufactured and mass produced - I mean that's the case today. How many libraries do you use? However, software is still an intellectual, out of thin air, endeavor. It requires thought to create new and make work with existing circumstances. You aren't melting metal into a mold to make a tangible object. You are literally fusing thoughts and intellectual processes together to d…

Thinking will eventually become mass produced. To a pre-industrial revolution artisan, having their work automated probably seemed just as difficult and "far out into the future" as a modern day programmer feels about his work being automated.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#182

Post by neopba » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 5:23 PM UTC

As for me, making smarter pill boxes is not much better then designing new deo-spray box or make a new web page or app for a company. Not a big difference.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#183

Post by abraininavat » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 5:27 PM UTC

the world’s most celebrated sushi chef turns to his son, who is leaving to start his own restaurant, and says: ‘You have no home to come back to.’ Which, when you think about it, isn’t harsh or discouraging but is in fact the very best thing you could say to someone setting out on an adventure.

Only if the only type of adventure you consider is one which aims toward financial success. There are other types of adventures in this world, and other types of goals. There's a place in this world for experimentation, playfulness, and boldness of the type that only is possible when you have a home to come back to.

I know that may not ring true in this forum, where the entrepreneurial spirit reigns, or in Japan, where (for many) katagaki (social rank through achievement) brings honor to your whole family, but from my point of view Jiro was sort of a jerk.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#184

Post by proksoup » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 5:35 PM UTC

It's a trend, fun to argue about if it's going up or down, or when it might go down, but does anyone honestly think it won't?

Re: Are coders worth it?

#185

Post by gte910h » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 5:41 PM UTC

abraininavat wrote: post #173

gvb wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We cannot put software on the kind of assembly line/stamping process we can with say door hinges or other metal works that used to require a skilled blacksmith. That doesn't mean it won't happen some day. Stamping out software is what your Windows/OSX/linux installation CD/DVD is. Microsoft is making a lot of money stamping out (figuratively nowadays) copies of Windows. Software engineering is the equivalent of the m…

Stamping out software is what your Windows/OSX/linux installation CD/DVD is. Microsoft is making a lot of money stamping out (figuratively nowadays) copies of Windows. I think you misunderstood. The product a software engineer makes is not a CD that lands in a person's hand. It's the arrangement of bits that eventually ends up on that CD. The OP is saying there is no way for a machine to arrange those bits.

He understands you. He just disagrees and thinks your metaphor is wrong.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#186

Post by gte910h » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 5:43 PM UTC

dhimes wrote: post #22

jezclaremurugan wrote: post #3

Not all web developers are "plumbers". If you are working on websites with heavy traffic, then you need to use complex algorithms to scale. That needs someone who is comfortable with algorithms, and that needs a quite lot of thought. The author describes simple CRUD websites and then equates all of web development to trivial tasks like that. Even scaling simple CRUD needs a lot skills, intelligence and ingenuity. And…

I agree. There are some that are worth a lot of money. But to be worth that kind of money you need deep domain knowledge. I won't pay $120/hr for someone to tinker with jQuery. I will pay that for a machine learning specialist. The fact is that 'coders' are today's version of auto mechanics in the 70s. The barrier to entry is low- an old box, a linux distro, google- and off you go. So everybody who can't do something…

The fact you think price per hour is directly correlated with total cost to achieve a good result is a bad thing.

Expensive (per hour) developers are often far cheaper.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#187

Post by gte910h » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 5:45 PM UTC

drunkpotato wrote: post #142

dhimes wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You caught me: I've not hired a domain expert coder. But I've also not paid $120/hr for front-end coders. I over-paid for one guy who knew far less than I did- horrible coding practice, always thought he was farther along on the project than he really was (and wanted money), and, in fact, never got far enough to even understand the problem before I terminated the agreement. For $120/hr the person isn't fiddling- they…

Fair enough. I think my response was biased towards professionals who you can be sure will do the job quickly, not learning on your dime.

Still it doesn't necessarily pay. There is a very large productivity gap between different people, for different tasks in software development (in the 1-50x range).

Re: Are coders worth it?

#188

Post by gte910h » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 5:47 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #48

guard-of-terra wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are. Why don't you move? Metaphorically speaking, don't be Steve Jobs in Syria, be Steve Jobs in the USA.

I got a call from a poor recruiter in Chattanooga, TN trying to fill a Rails job. Seemed to be getting a little desperate. Being in Atlanta, I have no trouble finding stuff right here. When he tried to punk me by saying, "Well, if you have roots I can understand," with a tone like I'm hurting my career prospects by not being willing to move, I asked, "Well, just for kicks, what kind of compensation is being offered h…

Yeah, I feel a bit bad for the recruiters trying to get senior/lead level guys for "fresh from GT CS program" wages. Or trying to hire iOS devs for $50 an hour.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#189

Post by ippisl » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 5:50 PM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #179

nawitus wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The creative content (writing, photography, art, travel guides etc) is all in demand, but no-one wants to pay for it, perhaps because it's so easy to produce something yourself, and so hard to distinguish the fine differences in quality which separate a remarkable piece of writing or photography from the mediocre. The real reason is not really that people don't want to pay for it, but rather it's available for free,…

Unfortunately I feel we're in a negative spiral, where good content (e.g. quality reporting and analysis, as in the example in the article) competes with free content which is just good enough to draw attention and pay for itself with advertising. Something is lost there, and in the rush to make everything free we're also losing the incentive for quality journalism or investigative writing, which are just too expensi…

The thing is, people never bought newspapers because they cared about democracy. They wanted to be entertained, and have something to talk about with colleagues.

At least with regards to written content, most people have access to much more interesting content. Heck, hn is more interesting than my newspaper. And we manage to find stuff to talk about.

Investigative journalism is just a case of the tragedy of the commons, that now run out the huge luck it got n the past. And we as a society need to start looking at it as such, and not fantasize that it is a standard business.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#190

Post by bsg75 » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 5:53 PM UTC

mediaman wrote: post #180

gvb wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We cannot put software on the kind of assembly line/stamping process we can with say door hinges or other metal works that used to require a skilled blacksmith. That doesn't mean it won't happen some day. Stamping out software is what your Windows/OSX/linux installation CD/DVD is. Microsoft is making a lot of money stamping out (figuratively nowadays) copies of Windows. Software engineering is the equivalent of the m…

This is a great point. Because software has near-zero replication costs, the "manufacturing" process has no good analog for software industry. The manufacturing industry is supported by an army of engineers in a wide variety of specialties. In fact, manufacturing, in some ways, is starting to look a little more similar to software, because the non-material costs of production are falling (automation replaces direct l…

Because software has near-zero replication costs, the "manufacturing" process has no good analog for software industry.

I wonder how many "business people" have a hard time understanding this concept, resulting in the typical shortsightedness that results in Build It Cheap And Fix It Later, where "later" almost never finds its time.