Live data from Hacker News

Are coders worth it?

aeonmagazine.com

51–60 of 324 posts

Re: Are coders worth it?

#51

Virtue is not value. Value is not virtue. What you consider virtuous may produce no economic value. Or maybe it does. There's no rigid formula that connects them and the Just World Hypothesis is an illusion that traps fools and wisemen alike. Attempts to browbeat the world out of "is" and into "ought" have been universal failures and I retain every confidence that it will be ever thus. James Somers might find Hayek's…

I don't know. I do think that without virtue there can be no value, if these are properly defined. (Virtue corresponding to filling human needs, value being economic value.) Is entertaining people virtuous at least potentially? if so, then there is nothing wrong with selling video games, movies, music, or whatever. If not, however then you have a problem because while the world make seem nice on paper (no money to Ho…

> I do think that without virtue there can be no value, if these are properly defined.

This is an unproductive line of argument because either of us can just keep moving the goalposts until we're exhausted.

Economic value clearly doesn't follow any "gut" virtue. Here's how an early moral theorist put it in a notoriously influential book:

    I returned, and saw under the sun,
    that the race is not to the swift,
    nor the battle to the strong,
    neither yet bread to the wise,
    nor yet riches to men of understanding,
    nor yet favour to men of skill;
    but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Generally speaking, attempts to create ranking functions for virtue lead to mismatches with the observed state of the world. You line up the list of virtuous things (curing AIDS, feeding poor people) and the list of valuable things (Ruby on Rails programmers, inanimate chunks of metal) and discover that they just don't line up. At all.

But if you try to impose a virtuous order, it all goes kerflooie. Because the whole system of production and allocation relies entirely on value. When you take value you away, it stops working. Partial enforcement leads to partial derangement and in general, creates new evils, requiring still further ranking functions ... it spirals out of control thereafter.

We read this:

    Dear friend, it is not possible for man to avert that
    which God has decreed shall happen. No one believes 
    warnings, however true. Many of us Persians know our
    danger, but we are constrained by necessity to do
    as our leader bids us.

    Verily 'tis the sorest of all human ills, to abound in
    knowledge and yet have no power over action.
And imagine ourselves to be men and women both of knowledge and power. But it was always an illusion.

I'm doing a pretty poor job of explaining all this. Hayek's Social or 'Distributive' Justice does a much more convincing, thorough and erudite job. It was published in the second volume of Law, Legislation and Liberty, also in The Essence of Hayek.

edit: by the way, your blog about LedgerSMB and PostgreSQL is bloody marvellous.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#52
post #9

TL;DR Rap Genius pays $150,000 + $10K signing bonus, dude feels kinda weird about it.

One more reason why moving to NYC or SV is in my future. I wouldn't feel weird at all.

I hope you do. If more of you move out here, the price might deflate to something less completely ridiculous.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't feel like the author was trying to prove anything, or was trying to get people to pursue more "virtuous" pursuits. It is simply a personal reflection on the state of the startup ecosystem and what it means to be a computer programmer.

I'm trying to save him some angst. Trying to reconcile the virtues of what he does with his economic value is pointless. They're just not connected. Demand for Ruby on Rails plumbing is ultimately connected with the current wishes and desires of most of the planet's population and has nothing whatsoever to do with how he, or anyone else, feels about it. In literary terms: he's tilting at windmills.

Well, sure, but there's a difference between understanding this on an intellectual level (which he already does) and coming to terms with it on an emotional level.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#54
‘What about somebody in a coal mine — wouldn’t you say he works as hard as you? Why should you get paid so much more than that guy?’

If this is a question to yourself, then my response is: start sending part of your paycheck to the guy in the coal mine. Don't blame someone else for society's ills and not be willing to fix such problems yourself. Find a miner, adopt him, send him half your paycheck, keep tabs on him: how the job's going, how the family's doing, etc.

If this is a question for me, a creator of software, then my response is: I build things that enable new activities, I don't perform a task that maintains someone else's status quo. I (as a freelancer) or my employer (when I'm an employee) have found someone willing to pay what we charge. Period. How am I able to do that? By learning. Continuously. By adapting to changes in technology and the market. Why do I get paid more than the coal miner? Because he has settled for that life. If he needs something more, he needs to learn how to attain it.

But maybe, just maybe, our coal mining friend is doing what he loves. If he's happy ... leave him alone.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#55

I think the point about code being cool is rather shortsighted: Code has only been cool to anything like mainstream youth for maybe five or ten years. In US high school as an exchange student in 1999, the computer science class/team/whatever most certainly wasn't "cool" - and this was on the tail of the .com boom. In high school in Denmark 99-02, I saw the first general recognition that while "being able to make webs…

I think you may be overestimating the capacity of the education system to change. I'm now a year removed from High School, but in my class of 350 there were maybe 10 who could program proficiently. Only two (myself and a friend) knew what linux was. I would say it wasn't treated as "cool", but certainly regarded with a wierd respect.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to save him some angst. Trying to reconcile the virtues of what he does with his economic value is pointless. They're just not connected. Demand for Ruby on Rails plumbing is ultimately connected with the current wishes and desires of most of the planet's population and has nothing whatsoever to do with how he, or anyone else, feels about it. In literary terms: he's tilting at windmills.

Well, sure, but there's a difference between understanding this on an intellectual level (which he already does) and coming to terms with it on an emotional level.

Granted. But if the existentialists taught us anything, it's that if you stop and look, I mean really look at your life, you'll find how thoroughly inconsequential it is.

Which is no comfort at all. Quite the reverse. Ignorance really is bliss.

I find the intellectual argument comforting because I can focus on the things I can control, the things that are within my sphere of power.

I used to be very interested in politics. These days I either ignore it or treat it as entertainment. Because I have no control over it, why drag myself down with it?

Re: Are coders worth it?

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. I do think that without virtue there can be no value, if these are properly defined. (Virtue corresponding to filling human needs, value being economic value.) Is entertaining people virtuous at least potentially? if so, then there is nothing wrong with selling video games, movies, music, or whatever. If not, however then you have a problem because while the world make seem nice on paper (no money to Ho…

> I do think that without virtue there can be no value, if these are properly defined. This is an unproductive line of argument because either of us can just keep moving the goalposts until we're exhausted. Economic value clearly doesn't follow any "gut" virtue. Here's how an early moral theorist put it in a notoriously influential book: I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the ba…

You say this because we practically live in a post scarcity society. 500+ years ago people valued hard labor that brought food because food prevented starvation a vary real and horrible thing. Now, food is an evil that brings heart disease and obesity. Our desires for food and our well being are out of alignment. Value is now a function of are desires with little connection to our needs.

Stealing from people was never thought of as a productive economic activity, but legally things like patent trolls that act like stealing are legal. So, I suspect you could creat a society where virtue and value are at least aligned and historically they may have been closer. However, we don't live in such a place.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#59
post #22

Not all web developers are "plumbers". If you are working on websites with heavy traffic, then you need to use complex algorithms to scale. That needs someone who is comfortable with algorithms, and that needs a quite lot of thought. The author describes simple CRUD websites and then equates all of web development to trivial tasks like that. Even scaling simple CRUD needs a lot skills, intelligence and ingenuity. And…

I agree. There are some that are worth a lot of money. But to be worth that kind of money you need deep domain knowledge. I won't pay $120/hr for someone to tinker with jQuery. I will pay that for a machine learning specialist. The fact is that 'coders' are today's version of auto mechanics in the 70s. The barrier to entry is low- an old box, a linux distro, google- and off you go. So everybody who can't do something…

Perhaps you've been very lucky or found some especially naive people (right out of grad school, perhaps). Your rates immediately struck me as the kind of rate you would quote if you'd never, in fact, tried to hire somebody skilled. I allow the possibility you have been lucky and successful.

In general you'll be paying upwards of $250/hr for a machine learning specialist (sometimes upwards of $500/hr if they have a modicum of talent and experience) and more than $120/hr for a front-end webdev who can claim anything more than "I've heard of jQuery." Those are contracting rates of course; hiring somebody at salary has its own costs.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#60
post #54

‘What about somebody in a coal mine — wouldn’t you say he works as hard as you? Why should you get paid so much more than that guy?’ If this is a question to yourself, then my response is: start sending part of your paycheck to the guy in the coal mine. Don't blame someone else for society's ills and not be willing to fix such problems yourself. Find a miner, adopt him, send him half your paycheck, keep tabs on him:…

>I build things that enable new activities

I would be cautious with this callous mentality towards the miner. I wouldn't jump so quickly to the conclusion that he/she is not "learning. Continuously" as you say you are. The miner may very well be. The issue the article raises is a good one, what validity is there that someone can put the value they create so much higher then another.

What happens one day when your profession is no longer well paid? Think for a minute that you did not have the mental capacity to compete in the new 'tech world' in 20 years. Would you expect that you are paid in accordance with your lack of ability, or would you hope you are still given an equal shot.

Personally this article hits at the heart of the somewhat libertarian style commentary on Hacker New. One that I myself am all too engulfed in as well. Perhaps we aren't as valuable as we may think?

Post reply on HN