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Stephen Fry reveals he attempted suicide in 2012

bbc.co.uk

71–80 of 102 posts

Re: Stephen Fry reveals he attempted suicide in 2012

#71
post #53
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fry has Bipolar Disorder, diagnosed in England. This is a very different illness to depression. And depression has different forms. Yes, talking therapies are powerful. But you seem to be making the mistake that a talking therapy isn't affecting brain chemistry, or that drugs are inherently bad. Comments like yours are very frustrating. Do you talk about people ignoring the real human factor when we put a broken bone…

But the biological theory of mental illnesses is very far from established. We have no reliable way of identifying them and no understanding of their mechanism. Existing studies of the medications we use to treat them have been subjected to pretty devastating critique; e.g. the most comprehensive review of the SSRI studies (by Irving Kirsch et. al.) found no clinical significance beyond placebo for the vast majority…

> the most comprehensive review of the SSRI studies (by Irving Kirsch et. al.) found no clinical significance beyond placebo for the vast majority of patients.

No. Biological theories of mental health and mental illness are very much established.

And yours is a complete mischaracterization of the work of Kirsch et al.

Their meta-analysis found that in ALL cases of depression, there is statistically significant improvement in quantitative measures of depression treated with SSRI. In moderate to severe cases of depression, the improvement was clinically significant (ie a clinician and patient clearly note the improvement). The meta-analysis done on clinical trials were overwhelmingly trials of 6 weeks of SSRI or less. Suicidal patients are almost all excluded from such trials. Treatment groups were treated with SSRIs via research protocols, and not usual clinical practice: there were no attempts made to match patients to an SSRI that would be most likely to help, to wait on a response, to use SSRIs that were helpful based on a family history; dose adjustments were typically prescribed by study protocol and not by patient response, patients were not switched to another SSRI when there was no response or if intolerable side effects developed, often no attempt to treat side effects with other agents were done, etc. In other words, none of the things any physician routinely does to optimize treatment were done in those trials, and yet there were STILL improvements in measures of depression across the board.

No reputable psychiatrist or physician will fail to recommend an SSRI in cases of moderate to severe depression. Therapy can also be helpful, but the evidence is overwhelming that SSRIs help in clinically significant ways in moderate to severe depression. There is no credible doubt about it.

Despite your assertions about what "people very much want to believe" - in my experience, people very much want to believe that the brain is somehow different - that something beyond biology is at work. Believing that somehow depressed or otherwise mentally ill people can just "snap out of it" or "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" is erroneous, unhelpful, but fits nicely into really completely shitty and cruel narratives about human beings.

But please. Perhaps you'd like to advance a theory on how an organ like the brain differs from every other organ and does its work in ways not explainable by biology, chemistry, physics, etc.

Re: Stephen Fry reveals he attempted suicide in 2012

#73
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you use words like "bi-polar and depression" it gives the sense that this is a medical disease . And while speaking strictly, it is indeed a medical disease -- I want people to see the raw human factor in this. Depression, for example, in my experience, and from what I've seen -- often has a cause; a rational, explainable cause (that the sufferer often isn't aware of). When you treat someone's depression as a "m…

As a counterpoint, I offer Robert Sapolsky, who most emphatically calls depression a disease: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc

I've watched 11 minutes of it, and I plan to watch the rest. Fascinating lecture.

Re: Stephen Fry reveals he attempted suicide in 2012

#74
post #71
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the biological theory of mental illnesses is very far from established. We have no reliable way of identifying them and no understanding of their mechanism. Existing studies of the medications we use to treat them have been subjected to pretty devastating critique; e.g. the most comprehensive review of the SSRI studies (by Irving Kirsch et. al.) found no clinical significance beyond placebo for the vast majority…

> the most comprehensive review of the SSRI studies (by Irving Kirsch et. al.) found no clinical significance beyond placebo for the vast majority of patients. No. Biological theories of mental health and mental illness are very much established. And yours is a complete mischaracterization of the work of Kirsch et al. Their meta-analysis found that in ALL cases of depression, there is statistically significant improv…

And yours is a complete mischaracterization of the work of Kirsch et al.

It isn't my characterization so much as a paraphrase of various sources I've read/heard on this, including Kirsch himself. My understanding is that Kirsch and Sapirstein's findings are two: (a) for all but severe depression, the improvement of SSRIs over placebo is measurable but too small to be clinically significant; (b) even that small measurable difference is questionable, because the studies were not really double-blind. (Patients could figure out which group they were in because of the SSRIs' side effects.) Is either of those descriptions of their findings wrong?

I haven't kept a list of sources, but one I remember is [1]. Is Kirsch mischaracterizing his own work?

I noticed that you didn't use the word 'placebo' in what you wrote. My understanding is that Kirsch et. al.'s findings were specifically about lack of clinical significance beyond placebo. Could that explain the discrepancy between your description and mine?

Perhaps you'd like to advance a theory

I would not. Do you think that lack of a better theory has anything to do with whether this one is substantiated or not?

[1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/irving-kirsch-phd/antidepressa...

Re: Stephen Fry reveals he attempted suicide in 2012

#75
post #53
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fry has Bipolar Disorder, diagnosed in England. This is a very different illness to depression. And depression has different forms. Yes, talking therapies are powerful. But you seem to be making the mistake that a talking therapy isn't affecting brain chemistry, or that drugs are inherently bad. Comments like yours are very frustrating. Do you talk about people ignoring the real human factor when we put a broken bone…

But the biological theory of mental illnesses is very far from established. We have no reliable way of identifying them and no understanding of their mechanism. Existing studies of the medications we use to treat them have been subjected to pretty devastating critique; e.g. the most comprehensive review of the SSRI studies (by Irving Kirsch et. al.) found no clinical significance beyond placebo for the vast majority…

i realise it's anecdote, but i grew up with a parent that was depressive. was on lithium, etc. life was pretty damn miserable until the first SSRIs became available - they were the first drugs that had any noticeable effect and they changed our lives.

Re: Stephen Fry reveals he attempted suicide in 2012

#76
post #53
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fry has Bipolar Disorder, diagnosed in England. This is a very different illness to depression. And depression has different forms. Yes, talking therapies are powerful. But you seem to be making the mistake that a talking therapy isn't affecting brain chemistry, or that drugs are inherently bad. Comments like yours are very frustrating. Do you talk about people ignoring the real human factor when we put a broken bone…

But the biological theory of mental illnesses is very far from established. We have no reliable way of identifying them and no understanding of their mechanism. Existing studies of the medications we use to treat them have been subjected to pretty devastating critique; e.g. the most comprehensive review of the SSRI studies (by Irving Kirsch et. al.) found no clinical significance beyond placebo for the vast majority…

Mental illnesses like cancer are defined by there effects not there underlying cause. As such they tend to treat a wide range of physical causes under the same general umbrella. And drugs or therapies which work wonders for some people often have little benifit for others. However, there are well studdied physical mechanisms for things like specific types of addiction which do present a physical mechanism.

A great example of this is Heroin addiction and alcohol addiction are vary different biochemically. There is even a wide range of Alcholhol addictions, but you will see them treated side by side. The simple truth is we can't really understand why someone has issues but we do have treatments that help people lead productive lives and that's enough to be useful. Just as your dentist does not need to know how pain killers work to use them effectively.

Re: Stephen Fry reveals he attempted suicide in 2012

#77
post #74
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the most comprehensive review of the SSRI studies (by Irving Kirsch et. al.) found no clinical significance beyond placebo for the vast majority of patients. No. Biological theories of mental health and mental illness are very much established. And yours is a complete mischaracterization of the work of Kirsch et al. Their meta-analysis found that in ALL cases of depression, there is statistically significant improv…

And yours is a complete mischaracterization of the work of Kirsch et al. It isn't my characterization so much as a paraphrase of various sources I've read/heard on this, including Kirsch himself. My understanding is that Kirsch and Sapirstein's findings are two: (a) for all but severe depression, the improvement of SSRIs over placebo is measurable but too small to be clinically significant; (b) even that small measur…

Shouldn't the default position be "we don't know"?

No that's a common misunderstanding. Science is the search for the best model/theory as such it's hard to rank something as better or worse than we don't know. Thus the default theory is "There is no relationship between X and Y". Even if not clinically useful there does appear to be a connection and as such you can replace the default theory.

After even more research the current theory is something like. "They appear to beat placebo's which have no side effects." Which again is far more useful than "We don't know." As it suggests comparing them to placebos that have side effects. Again not because they are going to help you treat patents directly, but because it tells you more about the disease and possible what research could be useful.

Re: Stephen Fry reveals he attempted suicide in 2012

#78

The documentary mentioned about his bi-polar is available on Amazon (and without permission on Youtube) for anyone interested, it's a very good insight into bi-polar and depression, worth the 120 minutes: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0808482/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Fry:_The_Secret_Life_of... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stephen-Frys-Secret-Manic-Depressive...

When you use words like "bi-polar and depression" it gives the sense that this is a medical disease . And while speaking strictly, it is indeed a medical disease -- I want people to see the raw human factor in this. Depression, for example, in my experience, and from what I've seen -- often has a cause; a rational, explainable cause (that the sufferer often isn't aware of). When you treat someone's depression as a "m…

"Depression, for example, in my experience, and from what I've seen..."

Your anecdotal observations shouldn't drive your understanding. Go read up on it. Suffering from mental illness myself I find your post quite offensive.

Re: Stephen Fry reveals he attempted suicide in 2012

#79
post #77
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yours is a complete mischaracterization of the work of Kirsch et al. It isn't my characterization so much as a paraphrase of various sources I've read/heard on this, including Kirsch himself. My understanding is that Kirsch and Sapirstein's findings are two: (a) for all but severe depression, the improvement of SSRIs over placebo is measurable but too small to be clinically significant; (b) even that small measur…

Shouldn't the default position be "we don't know"? No that's a common misunderstanding. Science is the search for the best model/theory as such it's hard to rank something as better or worse than we don't know. Thus the default theory is "There is no relationship between X and Y". Even if not clinically useful there does appear to be a connection and as such you can replace the default theory. After even more researc…

Science is the search for the best theory as such it's hard to rank something as better or worse than we don't know. Thus the default theory is "There is no relationship between X and Y".

For the purposes of this discussion, that's a distinction without a difference. (BTW I edited my comment before your reply showed up, and had deleted the bit you quoted.)

More significantly, your suggestion of comparing SSRIs to placebos with side effects strikes me as an excellent idea; it is what Kirsch's study would naturally seem to suggest. I wonder if such studies will ever be undertaken.

Edit: I did find at least one such study:

http://psychrights.org/research/Digest/CriticalThinkRxCites/...

Authors' conclusions:

The more conservative estimates from the present analysis found that differences between antidepressants and active placebos were small. This suggests that unblinding effects may inflate the efficacy of antidepressants in trials using inert placebos. Further research into unblinding is warranted.

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