Close the Book. Recall. Write It Down. • Hacker News Board

Re: Close the Book. Recall. Write It Down.

#21

Post by sundarurfriend » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 8:14 AM UTC

bbg wrote: post #12

Can't help but add Socrates' comments to Phaedrus in the Plato's dialogue Phaedrus (around section 274), to the effect that writing destroys man's faculty of memory, and bestows only a superficial sort of learning. As Socrates relates it, the Egyptian god Theuth describes various inventions to the king Thamus: "But when they came to letters, This, said Theuth, will make the Egyptians wiser and give them better memori…

> they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence [...]; they will be hearers of many things and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing;

Somewhat OT, but this seems to apply very well to the effect of Google on many of us too. While this originally referred simply to the 'availability' of knowledge in external sources, with Google (and the Internet as a whole) it becomes 'easy accessibility', which is perhaps even more dangerous. Dangerous unless we make conscious effort to avoid this phenomenon and use the technology for our enrichment.

Re: Close the Book. Recall. Write It Down.

#22

Post by sown » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 10:58 AM UTC

edw519 wrote: post #3

Alternatively: Don't miss class. Take good notes. Read the book. Party the night before the test. I'm still amazed that half my fraternity brothers spent 40 hours per week "studying" and the other half spent 40 hours drinking beer and playing bridge. There was no correlation between which group you were in and your grades.

This all depends on if you know how to really read a book, how to take good notes, and what to do with notes. :)

Re: Close the Book. Recall. Write It Down.

#23

Post by williammmeyer » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 12:28 PM UTC

If someone has access to ScienceDirect or Wiley InterScience they can read the actual papers:

ScienceDirect - Contemporary Educational Psychology : The limited benefits of rereading educational texts/ (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi...)

Wiley InterScience - Psychological Science : The Read-Recite-Review Study Strategy: Effective and Portable (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122269051/abstrac...)

Psychological Science is available on EBSCOhost, but articles are embargoed.

Re: Close the Book. Recall. Write It Down.

#24

Post by billswift » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 1:06 PM UTC

In the third level of knowledge, you understand the material and are able to explain things in your own words. You can draw new relationships between facts. You need to be able to remember details to explain things in your own words - for a long time I deluded myself that I could understand the material because I could follow along with the explanation easily enough as I read it. But you do not truly understand something until you can explain it in your own words from memory.

http://williambswift.blogspot.com/2009/03/learning-journal-a...

Re: Close the Book. Recall. Write It Down.

#25

Post by mncaudill » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 1:38 PM UTC

teilo wrote: post #11

This reminds me of the single best advice ever given to me about how to learn a difficult subject: Pretend that you are teaching it to an invisible audience, lesson by lesson. It is amazing how much faster you can comprehend even very complex topics this way. Preferably do this while wearing a bluetooth headset (it can be turned off) so people don't think you are crazy.

For people that really grasp a subject seemingly without effort, do you think they have some inner dialogue that is explaining it to an "invisble crowd"?

I'm just curious how a Feynman-like person digests new information.

Re: Close the Book. Recall. Write It Down.

#26

Post by rjett » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 1:51 PM UTC

teilo wrote: post #11

This reminds me of the single best advice ever given to me about how to learn a difficult subject: Pretend that you are teaching it to an invisible audience, lesson by lesson. It is amazing how much faster you can comprehend even very complex topics this way. Preferably do this while wearing a bluetooth headset (it can be turned off) so people don't think you are crazy.

cum docemus, discimus

Re: Close the Book. Recall. Write It Down.

#27

Post by eru » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 2:27 PM UTC

edw519 wrote: post #3

Alternatively: Don't miss class. Take good notes. Read the book. Party the night before the test. I'm still amazed that half my fraternity brothers spent 40 hours per week "studying" and the other half spent 40 hours drinking beer and playing bridge. There was no correlation between which group you were in and your grades.

> Don't miss class. Take good notes. Read the book. Party the night before the test.

In my experience taking notes is only second-best, because you sit in class and take notes, and then sit at home and think about your notes. I tend to contract both steps to: Sit in class and think very hard.

Anecdotal evidence from friends who had broken their writing hands and were forced to use that tactic, support this habit.

Re: Close the Book. Recall. Write It Down.

#28

Post by eru » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 2:29 PM UTC

10ren wrote: post #18

mkn wrote: post #5

The interesting thing, to me, is that this effect could serve as an explanation for the phenomenon described yesterday in http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=580209 . Namely, the independent study technique might naturally encourage this mode of learning by sheer accident. In short, you are studying to prepare for a discussion, rather than memorizing for an exam. This naturally causes you to 'close the book', recall,…

The actual discussion will also improve recall, because you are recalling the information in many ways, and exercising your mental model of it. The process of discussion gives you practice in recalling and using the information. You may also learn something from the discussion itself, become aware of gaps, fill those gaps, get addition points of view and ways to think about it, reasons for holding opinions, which one…

Perhaps that's why oral exams seem to work much better for me than written ones.

Re: Close the Book. Recall. Write It Down.

#29

Post by eru » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 2:31 PM UTC

sundarurfriend wrote: post #21

bbg wrote: post #12

Can't help but add Socrates' comments to Phaedrus in the Plato's dialogue Phaedrus (around section 274), to the effect that writing destroys man's faculty of memory, and bestows only a superficial sort of learning. As Socrates relates it, the Egyptian god Theuth describes various inventions to the king Thamus: "But when they came to letters, This, said Theuth, will make the Egyptians wiser and give them better memori…

> they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence [...]; they will be hearers of many things and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing; Somewhat OT, but this seems to apply very well to the effect of Google on many of us too. While this originall…

Yes. Recently I make increased efforts to not just recall information, but also sources.

Re: Close the Book. Recall. Write It Down.

#30

Post by srn » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 3:54 PM UTC

I got good grades in college and retained none of the information. Perhaps it was because the tests were open book and I am good at applying rules to a given problem, but my memory is terrible. Now I want to be able to derive everything from as close to first principles as I can. Then if I forget I can recreate the material.