The hidden sexism in CS departments • Hacker News Board

Re: The hidden sexism in CS departments

#11

Post by waqf » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 8:32 PM UTC

LolWolf wrote: post #8

I'm sorry, but please learn to differentiate between a shitty day and overall sexism. When people are angry, they'll strike so that it hits the hardest, it just so happened that it was a woman and the derogatory term against her is 'bitch'. So, please, get over yourself, and report the incident as an incident, not as a case. Also, tell the kid to grow up, it might help him in life.

And the other part of this is the social skills lesson: [many] people do not like being told what to do and may get angry, even if telling them was from your perspective a rational action.

It's no different from how people don't like being told they're wrong, even if they objectively are.

Re: The hidden sexism in CS departments

#12

Post by kaonashi » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 8:33 PM UTC

cs648 wrote: post #5

ucee054 wrote: post #4

Sexism is if you're Noether in 1915 and you can't get a faculty postion because you're a woman. Sexism is not if you are being a nag and you get called a bitch as a result. The guy in the story just sounds like a jerk who wasn't taking his TA responsibility seriously. Finally, even if there were sexism in that one CS departmenT it wouldn't mean that there's hidden sexism in CS departmentS. That's just stupidity and a…

It was abuse, using a misogynistic word, in a department where there is already a dearth of women due to the hostility they face. Brushing it under the carpet by denying her experience isn't helpful. You don't need to read this story to learn of sexism in CS departments, just ask any woman who does computer science and you can hear plenty of stories.

Right, but it's an anecdote. The title of the piece suggests some sort of comprehensive study, but fails to deliver anything beyond a single story of friction between two people (one of whom clearly has women issues).

Re: The hidden sexism in CS departments

#13

Post by gnoway » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 9:27 PM UTC

You can't have it both ways. If you don't want to be seen as a nag or as 'the next Adria Richards,' don't bring this up with the faculty department head after a single incident. Single incidents are handled between or amongst the people involved, or they are ignored.

Chronic behavior warrants administrative attention, though. The language and behavior described in this article _is_ wrong, and if it happened all the time it would absolutely warrant intervention.

Re: The hidden sexism in CS departments

#14

Post by s_baby » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 1:16 AM UTC

cs648 wrote: post #5

ucee054 wrote: post #4

Sexism is if you're Noether in 1915 and you can't get a faculty postion because you're a woman. Sexism is not if you are being a nag and you get called a bitch as a result. The guy in the story just sounds like a jerk who wasn't taking his TA responsibility seriously. Finally, even if there were sexism in that one CS departmenT it wouldn't mean that there's hidden sexism in CS departmentS. That's just stupidity and a…

It was abuse, using a misogynistic word, in a department where there is already a dearth of women due to the hostility they face. Brushing it under the carpet by denying her experience isn't helpful. You don't need to read this story to learn of sexism in CS departments, just ask any woman who does computer science and you can hear plenty of stories.

"Bitch" being a misogynistic term is a stretch...

Re: The hidden sexism in CS departments

#15

Post by ucee054 » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 1:27 AM UTC

mmmelissa wrote: post #6

ucee054 wrote: post #4

Sexism is if you're Noether in 1915 and you can't get a faculty postion because you're a woman. Sexism is not if you are being a nag and you get called a bitch as a result. The guy in the story just sounds like a jerk who wasn't taking his TA responsibility seriously. Finally, even if there were sexism in that one CS departmenT it wouldn't mean that there's hidden sexism in CS departmentS. That's just stupidity and a…

Sexism can manifest itself in many ways, and the subtle ways arent less legitimate concerns just because it could be worse. "At least youre not getting beaten, be thankful for that". Sexism can totally be if you are a "nag" and get called a "bitch"! Talking about an isolated relatively minor situation with the lens of sexism becomes difficult, because without establishing a pattern of behavior, its hard to determine…

Sexism can totally be

That's just an unbacked assertion; come back with something better.

"nag" and get called a "bitch"!

If you are a nag you probably deserve to get called a bitch. I'm fairly certain if I nag like the OP, I'll get called a bitch, and I'm not a girl. If that's sexism, I supposed it's misandry if I get called a dick. Lame.

What happens when many females encounter similar attitudes in many CS work spaces

What happens is that it will be demonstrable with a valid statistical test, instead of being stretched from one anecdote to a complaint about CS DepartmentS in general, which the idiotic OP did. I'm waiting for you to produce the stats.

Re: The hidden sexism in CS departments

#16

Post by ucee054 » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 1:32 AM UTC

cs648 wrote: post #5

ucee054 wrote: post #4

Sexism is if you're Noether in 1915 and you can't get a faculty postion because you're a woman. Sexism is not if you are being a nag and you get called a bitch as a result. The guy in the story just sounds like a jerk who wasn't taking his TA responsibility seriously. Finally, even if there were sexism in that one CS departmenT it wouldn't mean that there's hidden sexism in CS departmentS. That's just stupidity and a…

It was abuse, using a misogynistic word, in a department where there is already a dearth of women due to the hostility they face. Brushing it under the carpet by denying her experience isn't helpful. You don't need to read this story to learn of sexism in CS departments, just ask any woman who does computer science and you can hear plenty of stories.

where there is already a dearth of women due to the hostility they face

Where the hell did you pull that from? I suppose there's a "dearth" of men in nursing too? Can I infer an epidemic of misandry because we don't have 50% male nurses? Ludicrous.

just ask any woman

Yeah, because the plural of anecdote is data

Re: The hidden sexism in CS departments

#17

Post by mmmelissa » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 3:31 PM UTC

ucee054 wrote: post #15

mmmelissa wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexism can manifest itself in many ways, and the subtle ways arent less legitimate concerns just because it could be worse. "At least youre not getting beaten, be thankful for that". Sexism can totally be if you are a "nag" and get called a "bitch"! Talking about an isolated relatively minor situation with the lens of sexism becomes difficult, because without establishing a pattern of behavior, its hard to determine…

Sexism can totally be That's just an unbacked assertion; come back with something better. "nag" and get called a "bitch"! If you are a nag you probably deserve to get called a bitch. I'm fairly certain if I nag like the OP, I'll get called a bitch, and I'm not a girl. If that's sexism, I supposed it's misandry if I get called a dick. Lame. What happens when many females encounter similar attitudes in many CS work spa…

"Come back with something better", "I am waiting on you to produce the stats", ""

...um, why would I want to engage in a discussion with someone who communicates like this?

Also before you insult people's arguments by attempting to devalue them as assertions lacking proof, make sure you are also not guilty of the same. You use a lot of absolute language for someone concerned with evidence.

Lots of things in life cant be proved, does that mean we cant talk about them like mature and curious adults?

Re: The hidden sexism in CS departments

#18

Post by mmmelissa » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 4:18 PM UTC

s_baby wrote: post #14

cs648 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was abuse, using a misogynistic word, in a department where there is already a dearth of women due to the hostility they face. Brushing it under the carpet by denying her experience isn't helpful. You don't need to read this story to learn of sexism in CS departments, just ask any woman who does computer science and you can hear plenty of stories.

"Bitch" being a misogynistic term is a stretch...

Its more about what was communicated/interpreted than the actual words.

Take for instance: "I'm not going to let some bitch tell me what to do" vs. "Hey bitches, whats up?"

the first statement could communicate that the speaker has issues with females telling him what to do. The second statement is playful and affectionate.

However, because the word bitch is so generic and well used, the first speaker could easily only have issues with unpleasant people, not females. Its not clear.

That's why it is better to talk about a person's pattern of behavior, rather than labeling an isolated incident as sexism.

Re: The hidden sexism in CS departments

#19

Post by ucee054 » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 4:53 PM UTC

mmmelissa wrote: post #17

ucee054 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexism can totally be That's just an unbacked assertion; come back with something better. "nag" and get called a "bitch"! If you are a nag you probably deserve to get called a bitch. I'm fairly certain if I nag like the OP, I'll get called a bitch, and I'm not a girl. If that's sexism, I supposed it's misandry if I get called a dick. Lame. What happens when many females encounter similar attitudes in many CS work spa…

"Come back with something better", "I am waiting on you to produce the stats", " " ...um, why would I want to engage in a discussion with someone who communicates like this? Also before you insult people's arguments by attempting to devalue them as assertions lacking proof, make sure you are also not guilty of the same. You use a lot of absolute language for someone concerned with evidence. Lots of things in life can…

"Mature adults" don't make allegations without evidence, like Swept under the rug: the hidden sexism in CS departments

why would I want

The hell with your feelings, this is about true and false. Back up what you say or shut the hell up.

Re: The hidden sexism in CS departments

#20

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 05, 2013, 6:14 PM UTC

ucee054 wrote: post #19

mmmelissa wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Come back with something better", "I am waiting on you to produce the stats", " " ...um, why would I want to engage in a discussion with someone who communicates like this? Also before you insult people's arguments by attempting to devalue them as assertions lacking proof, make sure you are also not guilty of the same. You use a lot of absolute language for someone concerned with evidence. Lots of things in life can…

"Mature adults" don't make allegations without evidence, like Swept under the rug: the hidden sexism in CS departments why would I want The hell with your feelings, this is about true and false. Back up what you say or shut the hell up.

[deleted]