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Japan's radiation disaster toll: none dead, none sick

theage.com.au

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Re: Japan's radiation disaster toll: none dead, none sick

#41

Nobody dead or sick, yet tens of billions spent decommissioning nuclear reactors around the planet -- with all the environmental costs associated with that. The reason the world continues to pollute more than necessary for the energy we desire has much more to do with the irrationality of people than the physics of energy production.

I'm all for renewable energy. In fact, I own/operate a 200kWp solar plant. I put my money where my mouth is.

Having said that, in the mid-term I'm also pro-nuclear energy. Nuclear energy is one of the greenest, least polluting energy sources right now. It's the only technology that emits zero CO2 and can be used as baseload. All other technologies, be it CCGT/natural gas, fuel cells using natural or bio gas, coal powered plants, etc. produce CO2 and other GHG. As much as I wish the world run entirely on wind, water and sunlight, we are very far from this happening. Nonetheless I think it will be possible.

The main issue with renewable energy right now is its production volatility: the wind blowing, the sun shinning, dams to 100% capacity, etc. The need for a stable, non-CO2 emitting, energy production is nuclear. No doubt doubt about it.

When you negatively say > billions spent decommissioning nuclear reactors around the planet

implying that the cost of decommissioning is a big downside, let me clarify a few things:

1. decommissioning (from cleaning to storage) costs are priced in the energy cost, still making it far cheaper than oil and gas sources even without CCS technologies.

2. the cost of decommissioning is provisioned by the company running the plant, meaning that decommissioning is no extraordinary cost to the operator/consumer/citizen.

3. today's nuclear technology is nowhere as archaic as it was in the 70's/80's, when many errors were made trying out different technologies. Many people make the mistake of brining up the case of Chernobyl, but people are unaware that this plant was an R&D plant, built for the production of nuclear weapons, and not built for energy production.

4. the environmental impact of running nuclear plants today is extremely small (if not insignificant) compared to running the same energy capacity and production on fossil fuels, where CO2 and other harmful gasses are causing increase in temperatures, melting of icecaps, decimating thousands of species, and the list goes on.

I do agree that with you on

>The reason the world continues to pollute more than necessary for the energy we desire has much more to do with the irrationality of people than the physics of energy production.

There is plenty of educating still to be done on energy, its consumption and user behaviour, and I hope the anti-nuclear sentiment focuses more on the bigger picture, rather than blaming nuclear for the sake of sounding environmentally friendly.

Re: Japan's radiation disaster toll: none dead, none sick

#42
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at germany. Alternative energy doesn't have to be used that little. On a worldwide scale, it is even a different thing. You can't simply replace coal with nuclear energy worldwide, even if you were absolutely convinced that nuclear energy is safe when properly used and you have a concept for the nuclear waste produced like shooting it into space. Because many countries are just too instable, poor and iniffecient…

German renewables keep on threatening to collapse European power grid, which is much more advanced than any other power grid on the world. If other countries would be as aggressive with renewables as German are we would see a lot of Europe wide blackouts.

Collapse how?

Re: Japan's radiation disaster toll: none dead, none sick

#43
post #30
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always love it when coal is used as a comparision. Because: Coal isn't the alternative, solar and wind are Furthermore: Nuclear energy has a fairly high CO2 output, if you count it all together. So this argument against coal is itself an argument against nuclear energy. Most importantly: We can't manage nuclear waste. There is just no feasible scenario which makes sure for future generations that the nuclear waste…

> Coal isn't the alternative, solar and wind are Still really aren't and definitely weren't when Fukushima was built. > Nuclear energy has a fairly high CO2 output, if you count it all together. Care to elaborate?

Sure. When calculating the CO2 output, it happens too often that not the real numbers are used. Nuclear energy shines in that regard when focussing only on the power generation itself. But if you count it all together: Mining uranium, building the power plant, transporting to the uranium to the plant, operating the powerplant (from workers who drive to that plant) and in the end, shipping the nuclear waste to an endlager which needs to be build as well (which germany doesn't have, so that one is open ended), the costs as well as the CO2-output of nuclear energy are very high.

Add the CO2 used for disaster prevention and management and from decomissioning the power plants.

Re: Japan's radiation disaster toll: none dead, none sick

#44
post #41

Nobody dead or sick, yet tens of billions spent decommissioning nuclear reactors around the planet -- with all the environmental costs associated with that. The reason the world continues to pollute more than necessary for the energy we desire has much more to do with the irrationality of people than the physics of energy production.

I'm all for renewable energy. In fact, I own/operate a 200kWp solar plant. I put my money where my mouth is. Having said that, in the mid-term I'm also pro-nuclear energy. Nuclear energy is one of the greenest, least polluting energy sources right now. It's the only technology that emits zero CO2 and can be used as baseload. All other technologies, be it CCGT/natural gas, fuel cells using natural or bio gas, coal pow…

Are you sure you are arguing with the parent post? I think he's expressing a pro-nuclear sentiment similar to yours.

Re: Japan's radiation disaster toll: none dead, none sick

#45
I have a personal theory, that I haven't really been able to confirm or deny. Here it is.

After Hiroshima and during the cold war nuclear energy was associated with death and destruction. Hiroshima for obvious reasons, and the cold war because the population of the western world was constantly reminded how The Soviet Union had thousands of missiles with nuclear bombs pointing at us, ready to go. Western governments used nuclear weapons to picture the threat and to terrify populations into spending more on defense against the Soviets. There were scary videos of mushroom clouds, scary instructions on how to survive a nuclear blast, and scary stories of how a nuclear winter would pan out.

This, obviously, made people scared of nuclear bombs, and nuclear energy in general. Through decades the population was told by the government that nuclear radiation was the evil silent killer.

The byproduct of all this cold war propoganda was that people are now irrationally scared of nuclear radiation from power plants.

If you look at the numbers you'll see that nuclear energy is the safest and cleanest scalable energy source we've got. It's the energy source that has the fewest deaths per MWH produced, it doesn't produce CO2, etc. etc. Yet we think of it as getting power from the devil.

I blame the cold war propoganda for our irrational fear of nuclear energy.

Here's one of the old propaganda videos from the US, "Duck and cover" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4MVJIU0gFk

Re: Japan's radiation disaster toll: none dead, none sick

#46
None dead, because it doesn't matter how many decontamination workers die from leukemia or heart problems, it is never officially related to radiation.

None sick, because the increase in cancer that even the article mentions means nothing.

The thyroid cancer rate of Fukushima children is 79 times higher than usual. But "none sick". Yeah, whatever.

Re: Japan's radiation disaster toll: none dead, none sick

#47
post #28

Nobody dead or sick, yet tens of billions spent decommissioning nuclear reactors around the planet -- with all the environmental costs associated with that. The reason the world continues to pollute more than necessary for the energy we desire has much more to do with the irrationality of people than the physics of energy production.

Billions spent decomissioning, billions spent building, billions spent operating and billions saved on coal mining and transportation. Probably people and companies who decided to invest billions in nuclear plants did some cost-benefit analysis.

"Decommissioning is a general term for a formal process to remove something from active status."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decommissioning

Re: Japan's radiation disaster toll: none dead, none sick

#48
The article reads as if it was commissioned by Tepco directly. Nuclear power is not risk-free. Plants need to be operated with competent designs under the watchful eyes of competent engineers. None of which was the case at Fukushima. The argument that nuclear reactors are safer than coal is correct but misleading: it doesn't mean people get to ignore the dangers.

Contrary to what the article tries to evoke, the Fukushima meltdowns were a huge catastrophe that severely impacted a whole region. Ask the people who live(d) there if they think the impact of this thing was overstated in the media - they're likely to tell you if anything consequences were buried not exposed. Even if these very first statistics are true, there is likely to be more impact further down the road. There will be shortened lifespans as a result of exposure. There is massive economic damage as well. People's lives were severely affected. And let's not forget the destroyed reactors still aren't safe. There are very likely huge unpleasant surprises yet to be revealed.

I don't get why everything related to nuclear power gets discussed with this much emotion and propaganda. Let's not overreact, but let's also not underreact. Somewhere here there is a middle ground supported by facts and scientific judgement.

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