Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#191

Post by Domenic_S » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 4:42 PM UTC

rlpb wrote: post #88

jan_g wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more than a baby box. I do not know how familiar you are with some European countries' social system, but young parents are usually given quite a few months of vacation time and salary from the state, a sort of children allowance until a child is 18 years old (100EUR or so), tax deductions for every child until a child is 18 years old, kindergarten 'bonuses', free health care for every child and similar. So this…

> And I am not arguing against it, just that in the end someone has to pay for it. What if it turned out that the baby pays for it because the improved average upbringing allows the baby to earn more and consequently pay more tax in absolute terms, though not in percentage terms? Would it be a cost to the taxpayer then?

What if the improved upbringing opens up more opportunities for the child -- in other countries? So now instead of an average taxpayer you get nothing at all?

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#192

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 4:49 PM UTC

jon-wood wrote: post #164

yummyfajitas wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention all the Americans who choose to consume at American levels (considerably higher than European levels), rather than saving. As for people at the bottom, they typically do choose free time over money. About 90% of those classified by the government as poor choose not to work full time, for example. http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2010.pdf

They choose not to, or there's no full time work for them to take so they work part time instead? It may be that they make the choice (I admit to not having read the paper), but lets not jump to that assumption just because they're not in full time work.

They choose not to, or there's no full time work for them to take so they work part time instead?

The answer is in the report I linked to, which measures involuntary part time employment in addition to labor force participation.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#193

Post by ufo » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 4:55 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #144

gbog wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure that the pacifiers are a good idea, do they have them in the Finland box?

What do you have against pacifiers?

According to the article, Finland remover pacifiers from the box in 2006 in order to promote breastfeeding.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#194

Post by CaptainZapp » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 4:58 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #156

mikeash wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people only ever bring this up with social programs, and not any of the many other "free" things that are discussed around here?

Because social programs get their money from coercion. GitHub doesn't. (To the extent that you think you can find a private company that can and does use coercion, I object to that too.) Even as a liberatarian, I'm happy to say some things are well worth the coercion. But it should never be forgotten , because otherwise people do start thinking it's just free money that has no other concerns whatsoever, and start spe…

  Because social programs get their money from coercion

Language matters, and the verb 'coercion' in this context, to me, is actually repugnent.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercion):

"Coercion /koʊˈɜrʃən/ is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force,"

I don't see taxes (and I pay a fairly significant share) as our evil government squeezing out our hard earned cash by threatening, or intimidating us.

Quite the opposite: taxes are our entrance fees to a civilized society, to a working infrastructure, to good and fair education and to umpteen other things that make up a society.

You may argue how the public money is spent and how much of it should go into social programs and how deeply the state should get involved. Interesstingly, more equal societies, like the Nordics, seem to provide generally a higher quality of life for their citizens.

You can see taxes as a necessary evil, or hate them, but defining taxation as coercion is pretty loaded and rather close to Orwellian newspeak.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#195

Post by ars » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 4:59 PM UTC

phaemon wrote: post #158

ars wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> contents of the box and all the associated materials such as the written guides on infant care None of that did anything either, since other countries didn't have them and infant mortality went down there too.

That's a ridiculous conclusion to reach. If I lose weight because I start exercising and my neighbour loses weight because he started eating less, it's foolish to state that my exercise had no effect since my neighbour didn't do it and he lost weight too. [edit: too harsh]

This word "because" isn't as easy to use as you think.

You seem to be very sure of the exact reason why something happened. But it doesn't work that way in the real world.

Virtually every country on earth had reductions in infant mortality over the years. Only one of them had a box. Clearly the main driver of the improvement is something else.

So you might want to talk about the tiny differences, those things that improved one country more than another. Maybe the box? But see, you've lost all your certainty now, and you can't use the word "because", since you don't really know what improved things - after all the main improvement came from somewhere else entirely.

3rd try: Let's pick something in each country, and declare that thing the "cause" of the improvement! In Finland: A box. In Sweden? Something else.

This is what you did - you have no idea what really did it, you are just picking basically random things.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#196

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 5:00 PM UTC

phaemon wrote: post #158

ars wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> contents of the box and all the associated materials such as the written guides on infant care None of that did anything either, since other countries didn't have them and infant mortality went down there too.

That's a ridiculous conclusion to reach. If I lose weight because I start exercising and my neighbour loses weight because he started eating less, it's foolish to state that my exercise had no effect since my neighbour didn't do it and he lost weight too. [edit: too harsh]

[deleted]

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#197

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 5:02 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #167

yummyfajitas wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's so easy to copy, how come no one else in the world has actually managed to do it?

Some parts of Germany now rank as well as the Finnish average in the PISA tests. (And Singapore ranks pretty well, too, but that was not a result of an effort spurred on by the testing.)

So do some parts of the US. Ethnic subgroups of the US with similar ethnicity to Singapore also rank quite well.

http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/01/how-well-do-above-...

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#198

Post by ars » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 5:05 PM UTC

codeulike wrote: post #80

ars wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> contents of the box and all the associated materials such as the written guides on infant care None of that did anything either, since other countries didn't have them and infant mortality went down there too.

And those other countries were identical in every respect and hence perfect statistical controls?

Let's turn that around 180 degrees - without statistical controls how can you decide that a box did it?

You have no idea, you just like the box so you declare "the box is the king". It sounds good - the box has something to do with babies after all, so let's assign all the improvement to the box.

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it?

If you want to say "I have no idea whatsoever what caused the improvement", then I'll grant you your statistical rebuttal. But if you want to say "The box did it", then your statistical rebuttal is disingenuous.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#199

Post by ars » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 5:16 PM UTC

calinet6 wrote: post #135

Gotta love that Infant Mortality graph... if that's not direct proof of a systematic effect and success then I don't know what is.

> if that's not direct proof of a systematic effect and success then I don't know what is

Two graphs. One for a country with a box, and one for one without.

Interestingly people have made such graphs, and there is no difference.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#200

Post by therandomguy » Tue, Jun 04, 2013, 5:17 PM UTC

gbog wrote: post #155

rayiner wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you have against pacifiers?

It's inconvenient and better avoided. Toddlers cry, that's the normal thing. Some are unbearable and then a pacifier is ok but they become addicted and you're easily in deep shit if you travel and forget them or lose them (I had one in each pocket when taking a plane). I guess most kid don't really need it, parents need it, when they can't bear the cries. But even then I think you just postpone the annoyance. I have…

It is a self comforting device and recommended by AAP: http://goo.gl/ZnR17