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Texas won't allow Tesla to sell electric cars directly

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Re: Texas won't allow Tesla to sell electric cars directly

#81
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's an example of government as envisioned by the founders working as intended - when someone at the state level overreaches, a federal court strikes it down (I'm hoping the same thing happens to this absurd law regarding dealer sales). This happens in more places than just Texas. Doesn't change the fact that your first statement is not factual anymore. Given time I think we (Texans) can eventually stop / vote…

Glad to hear it. Just consider this poor bastard, who was recently sentenced by said morons to 50 years for the entirely non-violent act of shoplifting a package of ribs. www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/31/willie-smith-ward-rib-theft_n_3365554.html That's "justice", Texas style. Better than the Taliban's, I suppose. But not by much.

It seems he was sentenced not for stealing ribs, but because the threatened the store owner that confronted him, which is, in fact, a violent act. It also appears he was somewhat of a habitual offender, having been convincted of various violent and non-violent crimes many times previously.

The sentence is somewhat harsh (eligible for parole in 12.5), but your comparison to the Taliban is absurd.

EDIT:

somewhat harsh in relative comparison to normal American sentencing standards, since the goal is apparently to single out Texas as some horrible place where sentencing is too harsh. I will now point out draconian three-strikes laws in other more progressive states that would have had him in jail for life.

Make no mistake, I think American criminal courts and sentencing are too harsh in general and our prisons are horrible travesties of justice. But the singling out of this state is what I'm calling absurd - all of American criminal sentencing is broken.

Re: Texas won't allow Tesla to sell electric cars directly

#82
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm responding directly to his "large corporate interests" talking point, when those large corporate interests are barred from selling directly.

The large corporate interests have the infrastructure in place and don't particularly want to sell directly. This regulation serves as a moat to keep out competition.

1) The large corporate interests don't own that infrastructure. The actual owners can choose whoever they want to represent.

2) What's stopping Tesla from partnering with Toyota dealers?

3) With its $10B valuation, Tesla could build 10 very nice dealerships for 1% of its valuation.

Re: Texas won't allow Tesla to sell electric cars directly

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets, and steal loaves of bread." -Anatole France

Tesla currently has a market cap over $10B. That is larger than Fiat's.

doesn't answer the question, why should Tesla be granted an exception not available to other automakers? Chrysler has had all sorts of problems with franchise law in California in regards to operating their own.

Re: Texas won't allow Tesla to sell electric cars directly

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other car manufacturers can't sell directly. Why should Tesla get special rules?

They shouldn't. ALL manufacturers should be able to sell direct to their customers. We have this same problem here in NC, and I'd be somewhat opposed to a bill which carved out an exemption just for Tesla. But I'd wholeheartedly back a bill that approved "direct to customer" sales across the board.

Exactly. I agree with you that car manufacturers should be able to sell directly. I'd love to buy a BMW directly instead of dealing with a dealership. The laws prevent BMW and other car manufacturers from doing so. The laws need to be changed, but until that happens, IMO everyone should be following the same rules.

Re: Texas won't allow Tesla to sell electric cars directly

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law was put in place to protect dealers who invested their own money in their infrastructure from predatory manufacturer practices. Tesla has no existing dealer network, and therefore has no need to have said non-existed dealer network protected from them.

Yes, I agree that the law is a shoddy law but that shouldn't allow Tesla to sell directly. Would small car manufacturers get special rules too? Laws are laws. Either change the law or enforce it. That's fair. Not cronyism.

The original intent of the law was not to prohibit manufacturers from selling direct. The intent was to prevent manufacturers from competing against their own dealerships. Tesla has no dealerships.

Re: Texas won't allow Tesla to sell electric cars directly

#86
post #31

Tesla said it best: "Tesla will sell its cars the way it wants. If some states don't allow that, then Tesla will simply sell them elsewhere." When a piece of a neural network becomes corrupt and entrenched beyond repair, (cancerous) the tumor or cancer fights to protect itself, there are two solutions to these kinds of problems. 1. One solution is what Musk is doing, treat the dealerships as a cancerous growth in the…

Such absolutist, black and white descriptions of these situations are, quite frankly, terrible.

I mean, you take business and politics and compare it to a life or death struggle against cancer. Could you be any less fair to the interests of the other side?

You could, extremely easily, reverse the tables and let the massive automotive industry and the millions upon millions of people in it's employ describe Musk and his electric startups as a cancer on one of the backbones of American industry. That his "I won't come to the table" policies of "my way or the highway" are disease on a century old industry that has provided for multiple generations of American's livelihoods.

I don't see how your ridiculous demagoguery does anything but turn this into a "us vs them" false dichotomy.

I support Musk and Tesla but comments like this are just ridiculous. The guy is selling a few thousand $80000 ultra-luxury sportscars. Let's not decry the end of a century old industry _quite_ yet with such dramatic language, eh?

Re: Texas won't allow Tesla to sell electric cars directly

#87
post #51
post #31

Tesla said it best: "Tesla will sell its cars the way it wants. If some states don't allow that, then Tesla will simply sell them elsewhere." When a piece of a neural network becomes corrupt and entrenched beyond repair, (cancerous) the tumor or cancer fights to protect itself, there are two solutions to these kinds of problems. 1. One solution is what Musk is doing, treat the dealerships as a cancerous growth in the…

The metaphor is cute, but maybe overstated. Tesla isn't doing this because it's what a self healing network would do. Tesla is doing this because it's a rapidly-growing startup whose production facilities are heavily oversubscribed already. They have no net downsides to giving up the "Texas" market for now, because they don't have enough cars to sell even without Texas (and the handful of other such states). Eventual…

> IMHO, things make much more sense when you argue in fact instead of metaphor.

This is true. However, are you actually arguing in fact? Your statements read as an outside agent judging the intentions and motivations of other agents. Perhaps you're part of one of the groups and actually possess insider knowledge here?

Another potential outsider's reading of the bets and motivations at play (this taken from nearly 4 years working with auto dealerships):

The dealers have built up reliance on a system that allows them to screw over consumers in myriad ways that make them very good money every time a consumer needs a vehicle. They've already seen sales erode due to the economy, as well as the rise of internet-powered sales channels like craigslist, ebay, etc. While they cannot do anything about the former, the latter has been generally approached with dealers getting involved in listing their vehicles on the internet in an effort to constantly re-inject themselves into once private p2p marketplaces.

The dealers no doubt want Tesla to be successful as a manufacturer, they just do not want to allow a new precedent to establish wherein they are not standing as the gatekeepers between consumers and they cars they want. This has been a lucrative business model for them for a very long time. Everybody knows consumers hate it, and yet there's no other way to get your hands on a brand new car. Tesla has a fair amount of consumer interest, and dealers recognize this. So they want to make money off it, which will lead to even higher prices for consumers.

If Tesla succeeds, it's going to establish a manufacturer-operated dealership that vies directly with the existing model, leading to a situation where consumers may value that relationship higher than the one they've had to deal with for so long. Tesla will have an interesting-to-watch dynamic develop between its customers because the relationship will be direct -- right now, every other manufacturer establishes indirect relationships through the dealer proxy. In the Tesla-operated model, there will be no way for dealers to compete with the Tesla dealerships being the only one's with the new cars--this isn't like competing with the Honda dealership across town.

If the Tesla dealerships succeed and consumers take note, dealers would rightly fear other manufacturers following in its footsteps and setting up some trial direct dealerships. If that succeeds ... well, we can all see where that will lead. However, despite that kind of hopeful scenario, I think it is an irrational fear. Most manufacturers rely on dealers to more evenly distribute the risk of producing and selling expensive assets that require a lot of space (floorplan isn't free, and it's a significant dealer cost (which is why you should always buy the oldest car on the lot (measured in # days it has been in dealer inventory))). I seriously doubt automakers are very interested in taking on the work and headache of setting up more distribution networks and doing all of the various things dealers do now that actually serve their local markets. It seems more likely that they're trying to put out the wrong fire here.

Lastly, I'm not sure if this is what you were getting at, so apologies if it's just a longer stating of what you meant. Your comment was ambiguous as to what kind of success you think the Texas dealers are concerned with--ramping up the production facilities successfully so Tesla has enough cars to sell into the Texas market, or winning the fight to sell directly to consumers.

Re: Texas won't allow Tesla to sell electric cars directly

#88
post #14

Funny how similar it is to the alcohol situation. Its illegal for a brewery to sell beer directly to the public in Texas, they have to go through a middleman (distributor) that doesn't really provide value. Although in the last legislative session the rules got relaxed somewhat ( especially for brewpubs ), its still pretty similar.

Funny how you single out Texas for doing this. How is this different from other states?

If you talk to a Pennsylvanian about it, chances are they will tell you about how they have "Communist liquor" (and yes, the "communist" word there has all the negative connotations you might expect from such a rural state).

I suppose Pennsylvania does not quite have that same 'exceptionalist' attitude as Texas does.

Re: Texas won't allow Tesla to sell electric cars directly

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how you single out Texas for doing this. How is this different from other states?

I'm in Ohio and I can (and do) buy directly from the brewery, from single bottles to full barrels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-tier_(alcohol_distributio...

Re: Texas won't allow Tesla to sell electric cars directly

#90
post #5

All too often, the media as well as average people mistake support for corporate interests as support for "free enterprise." When large corporate interests are essentially writing bills for lawmakers, "free enterprise" is precisely what is not being practiced.

Other car manufacturers can't sell directly. Why should Tesla get special rules?

Other manufacturers had dealership agreements dating back pretty far into history. This is a really good listen:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/02/19/172402376/why-buyi...

I suspect it would be better for everyone if special dealership regulations were broken down. But, given that Tesla is a new car company, without any historical dealership agreements, why should they be bound the inefficient legal infrastructure that essentially cropped up around private contractual agreements between other car companies and dealers.

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