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Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#161

Post by yummyfajitas »

_mulder_ wrote: post #153
yummyfajitas wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely, you prefer not to pay because it costs way more than it should. Americans earn 30% more than Finlanders adjusting for PPP . I.e., taking into account higher cost of health care, lower cost of most other things, we still have 30% more on average. Americans do pay more for education than Europeans, but our results are quite good compared to most of Europe. The only reason it appears our educational system…

Perhaps American's would be even more educated if they used a system like Finland's, often held up as the worlds best education system. Paying less and getting better results sounds good to me. Maybe Finland's high educational achievement level starts with the picture book in the box? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index

If it's so easy to copy, how come no one else in the world has actually managed to do it?

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#162

Post by mikeash »

jerf wrote: post #156
mikeash wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people only ever bring this up with social programs, and not any of the many other "free" things that are discussed around here?

Because social programs get their money from coercion. GitHub doesn't. (To the extent that you think you can find a private company that can and does use coercion, I object to that too.) Even as a liberatarian, I'm happy to say some things are well worth the coercion. But it should never be forgotten , because otherwise people do start thinking it's just free money that has no other concerns whatsoever, and start spe…

I don't think any of the people who think taxes are free money post to HN.

Constantly reminding HN posters that "free" government programs actually cost money, like every single other thing in life, just derails the conversation. It serves no useful purpose, because we already know. It's just political grandstanding.

Imagine if every single post on HN about the success of some company included comments like, "it's not really their success, since they used public roads and electrical infrastructure, oh and that whole Internet thing started out as a government program!" You'd probably get annoyed pretty fast at people shoving their politics in your face where it's unnecessary.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#163

Post by at-fates-hands »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #74

Now this is my kind of nanny state. A thought: This program started for low-income families but was extended after a few years to all families. The nice thing about universality rather than means testing is that a) middle class families are more apt to continue supporting it if they can experience its benefits first-hand; b) you save the money that would otherwise be spent testing, enforcing and auditing the system;…

This is a great idea, until you remember Finland has a population of about 5 million. LA itself has a population of almost 4 million.

While I think this a great idea, it's pretty easy to do with such a small population. Once you start talking about a scale the size of the US, it gets rather spendy in a hurry.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#164

Post by jon-wood »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #141
nollidge wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so we can just pay for these things with savings if we want to. Uh, who's "we"? You mean the 60% of Americans with more than $500 in savings? Are those the people who can "just" pay for it out of savings?

Not to mention all the Americans who choose to consume at American levels (considerably higher than European levels), rather than saving. As for people at the bottom, they typically do choose free time over money. About 90% of those classified by the government as poor choose not to work full time, for example. http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2010.pdf

They choose not to, or there's no full time work for them to take so they work part time instead?

It may be that they make the choice (I admit to not having read the paper), but lets not jump to that assumption just because they're not in full time work.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#165

Post by eru »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #163
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #74

Now this is my kind of nanny state. A thought: This program started for low-income families but was extended after a few years to all families. The nice thing about universality rather than means testing is that a) middle class families are more apt to continue supporting it if they can experience its benefits first-hand; b) you save the money that would otherwise be spent testing, enforcing and auditing the system;…

This is a great idea, until you remember Finland has a population of about 5 million. LA itself has a population of almost 4 million. While I think this a great idea, it's pretty easy to do with such a small population. Once you start talking about a scale the size of the US, it gets rather spendy in a hurry.

Why don't they chop up the US in 60 Finland sized bits, if it's so much easier to have success in a small country?

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#166

Post by ceol »

mikeash wrote: post #152
300bps wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of people that think the government has unlimited money and should spend it on the people. These people don't know that it is literal wealth transfer from one person to another with the government acting as middle man. Sure, you may realize that this is the case but many people don't. It's the same mentality that leads people to believe that insurance companies should pay for everything until they re…

Do any of those people post on HN?

Or exist, for that matter?

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#167

Post by eru »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #161
_mulder_ wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps American's would be even more educated if they used a system like Finland's, often held up as the worlds best education system. Paying less and getting better results sounds good to me. Maybe Finland's high educational achievement level starts with the picture book in the box? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index

If it's so easy to copy, how come no one else in the world has actually managed to do it?

Some parts of Germany now rank as well as the Finnish average in the PISA tests. (And Singapore ranks pretty well, too, but that was not a result of an effort spurred on by the testing.)

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#168

Post by tomjen3 »

arethuza wrote: post #107
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #74

Now this is my kind of nanny state. A thought: This program started for low-income families but was extended after a few years to all families. The nice thing about universality rather than means testing is that a) middle class families are more apt to continue supporting it if they can experience its benefits first-hand; b) you save the money that would otherwise be spent testing, enforcing and auditing the system;…

One question I find interesting is to what extent governments should be in the business of building solidarity and shared values. Personally, I'm all for it - but that's a product of my age (40s), location (Scotland) and where I grew up (a small village in the North of Scotland). NB Having a father who served in the RAF during WW2 probably influenced me far more than I realised at the time - my political views around…

I don't find that interesting at all, I find that question to be very scary, because I don't want a government that is in the business of telling people what is right and what is wrong. I want a government of people smart enough to themselves realize what is right and what is wrong and to ensure that the government follows these things.

A government that runs Guantanamo and puts people in jail for smoking joints isn't an entity that should tell anybody what is right and what is wrong.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#169

Post by eru »

jon-wood wrote: post #164
yummyfajitas wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention all the Americans who choose to consume at American levels (considerably higher than European levels), rather than saving. As for people at the bottom, they typically do choose free time over money. About 90% of those classified by the government as poor choose not to work full time, for example. http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2010.pdf

They choose not to, or there's no full time work for them to take so they work part time instead? It may be that they make the choice (I admit to not having read the paper), but lets not jump to that assumption just because they're not in full time work.

Sorry, yummyfajitas was being sarcastic.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#170

Post by ecopoesis »

eru wrote: post #165
at-fates-hands wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great idea, until you remember Finland has a population of about 5 million. LA itself has a population of almost 4 million. While I think this a great idea, it's pretty easy to do with such a small population. Once you start talking about a scale the size of the US, it gets rather spendy in a hurry.

Why don't they chop up the US in 60 Finland sized bits, if it's so much easier to have success in a small country?

Great idea. We can call these bits: "states"
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