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Advice for young developers

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Re: Advice for young developers

#11

Post by davemello »

ed209 wrote: post #10
chollida1 wrote: post #5

> Work for free. This is my boilerplate advice for anyone getting started in any industry, not just web developers. Finding someone that will let you work with them is not that hard, if you offer to do it for free. Yikes.... I would never advise someone to work for free for a company. If you want to work on an open source project then that's probably a better use of your time. The problem with free is that it lowers…

That depends on how you class "for free". Most people think free = not being paid money. I'm actually looking into working for the whole of July for no monetary compensation. But in return, I expect to learn something from whoever I work with/for. Most of the time money is good. You can exchange that for many things in life. But sometimes, knowledge is better to have as you can exchange that for (even more) money. An…

>> But sometimes, knowledge is better to have as you can exchange that for (even more) money.

Thanks ed209, that's great, and exactly what I was getting at.

Re: Advice for young developers

#12

Post by geekam »

Working on non-technical project is a good advice. I like to paint and indulge in photography and I have often seen ideas jumping from one field to the other. Like working on a project that requires front-end work sometimes gets help from while I am splashing paint on my canvas. Photography on the other hand, lets me indulge in the subject at hand. A developer is someone who developer, an idea, a vision into reality. I just do not associate "being a developer" to "being a programmer" anymore.

I did not like the "work for free" advice a lot but I do think that sometimes the only way to work on something that you really want to work on is to give your time and energy to it, for free. I am sure there are people who will not agree with me but I am a big proponent of non-profits (esp the ones who ask for your services, more than money).

Re: Advice for young developers

#13

Post by Adirael »

davemello wrote: post #8

Thanks, all, for the feedback! I just wanted to clarify on my 'work for free' point. If you have no real-world experience, get some. While you may not get paid at first, the amount of marketable skills you learn will more than pay for that. The point here is not to offer to work for free in hopes that you might eventually get hired (although that can sometimes happen). Rather, the point is that there are a lot of thi…

It's better to build something for yourself or contribute in Open Source than working for free on a for-profit company.

I also don't think it's easy to get "hired" for no money in most companies, legal issues aside, training people is NOT free and you can't trust and give responsibilities to someone you're not paying. On Europe is common to do unpaid internships as part of your education, but the companies taking you in get money or tax rebates to do so.

Re: Advice for young developers

#14

Post by cunac »

davemello wrote: post #8

Thanks, all, for the feedback! I just wanted to clarify on my 'work for free' point. If you have no real-world experience, get some. While you may not get paid at first, the amount of marketable skills you learn will more than pay for that. The point here is not to offer to work for free in hopes that you might eventually get hired (although that can sometimes happen). Rather, the point is that there are a lot of thi…

You should pay at least minimum wage which is intended for unskilled labor. Even training that person will provide value to you and you will learn so much about yourself.

Re: Advice for young developers

#15

Post by mbenjaminsmith »

davemello wrote: post #8

Thanks, all, for the feedback! I just wanted to clarify on my 'work for free' point. If you have no real-world experience, get some. While you may not get paid at first, the amount of marketable skills you learn will more than pay for that. The point here is not to offer to work for free in hopes that you might eventually get hired (although that can sometimes happen). Rather, the point is that there are a lot of thi…

Thanks for joining the discussion.

Qualified it is still bad advice. The last thing the software industry needs is a hazing period for unscrupulous companies to take advantage of. If you're really lacking in any demonstrable experience then work on a personal project or an open source project until you can show that you know what you're doing. The pay is the same and what you'll have to show for it is just as valuable (if not a lot more) for future employers -- at least the ones you're likely to actually want to work for.

>> "fast-moving, multi-faceted company with real clients"

Before I got into software I built a public relations agency from the ground up. I used to dream in corporate double-talk. Even I don't know what that phrase means.

Re: Advice for young developers

#16

Post by acchow »

showsover wrote: post #9
probably_wrong wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't work for free. My time is more valuable than free. I think this doesn't probably apply for students and/or recent graduates, as it would be a way of escaping the typical "I can't get a job because I don't have experience, and I can't get experience because I don't have a job" catch-22. True, my time is always worth a certain amount (probably higher than I assume), but if I get a tangible benefit out of it,…

No, working for free is not a good idea. Perhaps for non-profits, but even then you are better off to either charge a friends' price, or just donate money. How would someone that just graduated pay rent and food when they don't have a job that, you know, pays them?

Wealthy parents. An ethical issue with working for free is it gives an advantage to kids with wealthy parents, lowering mobility.

Re: Advice for young developers

#17

Post by bad_user »

I'm 30 and I already have 10 years of experience. The job I got at 20 was a shitty job. The next job after that was also shitty. I went through soul-sucking activities at my day job and it almost made me switch careers. Unfortunately I needed the salary. And fortunately I evolved.

If I would be 20 again and I wouldn't need a salary, then I would probably find a bunch of acquaintances to start a project of our own. Something not necessarily with a prospect of a future. Something fun, with no clients, no deadlines and no managers.

Internships are also great, as interns are usually left to work on fun things. But it really depends on the company you're internshiping with. The big ones are kind of cool for interns and I would prefer them (e.g. Google, Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, Amazon), even though I wouldn't want to work there full time. I would also never work for free. Ask for a salary, even when doing an internship. If a company wants for-free interns, that's not the kind of company you want to work with.

Re: Advice for young developers

#18

Post by jmduke »

ed209 wrote: post #10
chollida1 wrote: post #5

> Work for free. This is my boilerplate advice for anyone getting started in any industry, not just web developers. Finding someone that will let you work with them is not that hard, if you offer to do it for free. Yikes.... I would never advise someone to work for free for a company. If you want to work on an open source project then that's probably a better use of your time. The problem with free is that it lowers…

That depends on how you class "for free". Most people think free = not being paid money. I'm actually looking into working for the whole of July for no monetary compensation. But in return, I expect to learn something from whoever I work with/for. Most of the time money is good. You can exchange that for many things in life. But sometimes, knowledge is better to have as you can exchange that for (even more) money. An…

>> Most of the time money is good. You can exchange that for many things in life. But sometimes, knowledge is better to have as you can exchange that for (even more) money.

This is a false dichotomy. With some very rare exceptions, you do not choose between monetary compensation and experience: you need -- and should get -- both.

Re: Advice for young developers

#19

Post by estebank »

RuggeroAltair wrote: post #7

Advertising the 'work for free' thing pushes towards establishing a dangerous culture, in which slowly all first jobs are expected to be unpaid. And some companies would (and some already do) include these 'free' people in their business model. There is no reason why those companies can't pay a basic internship salary which at least allows you not to work somewhere else to be able to eat and sleep somewhere else than…

I've been seeing that a lot here in Europe, lots of people holding Masters degrees unrelated to IT doing unpaid/underpaid internships. I find the entire idea completely bonkers.

I did an unpaid internship that lasted 5 months in South America... when I was 17, because it was needed to get my Electronics Technician HS diploma. Even then, some of my luckier fellow students got a token payment.

I've been working since I started college, and even when underpaid at first, never had trouble finding work. Although I'm a college drop out, I didn't have trouble finding a job in a different continent even before coming here. I'm guessing that we are extremely lucky to be in our industry, as there is no lack of work, even outside of the Bay Area.

Re: Advice for young developers

#20

Post by mgkimsal »

RuggeroAltair wrote: post #7

Advertising the 'work for free' thing pushes towards establishing a dangerous culture, in which slowly all first jobs are expected to be unpaid. And some companies would (and some already do) include these 'free' people in their business model. There is no reason why those companies can't pay a basic internship salary which at least allows you not to work somewhere else to be able to eat and sleep somewhere else than…

You're forgetting all the foosball tables and sodas they have to provide for those free laborers (whoops - 'interns'). Those don't come cheap, you know.
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