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Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#101

Post by miloshadzic »

cdoxsey wrote: post #97

Infant mortality rates can also be quite deceptive in that they aren't measured the same way between countries. "Even the use of the most fundamental term, “live births,” greatly distorts infant-mortality rates, because often the infants who die the soonest after birth are not counted as live births outside the United States." http://www.nationalreview.com/content/infant-mortality-decep...

I don't think the point of the article was to compare infant mortality between countries. Finland had a problem with infant mortality and this is one of the steps they took to improve. The program seems to be working well and makes the Finns happy.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#102

Post by Nursie »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #89
jan_g wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more than a baby box. I do not know how familiar you are with some European countries' social system, but young parents are usually given quite a few months of vacation time and salary from the state, a sort of children allowance until a child is 18 years old (100EUR or so), tax deductions for every child until a child is 18 years old, kindergarten 'bonuses', free health care for every child and similar. So this…

... but young parents are usually given quite a few months of vacation time and salary from the state, a sort of children allowance until a child is 18 years old (100EUR or so)... In the US we earn 30% more money than Finland (adjusted for cost of living, which is quite high in Finland), so we can just pay for these things with savings if we want to. Most of us choose not to, suggesting these benefits are worth less…

That's right kids, Americans choose never to have any vacation time and spend all their lives in work...

Also LOL @ Savings. From what I've read only around 55% of Americans have more savings than credit-card debt.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#103

Post by josephlord »

pointyhats wrote: post #12
oracuk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you publish a citation referencing these problems?

Stand outside ASDA in Feltham or Hounslow and observe.

And how do you observe:

1) that essential stuff has been forgotten

2) that those you see were even eligible for the grant (it is only for those receiving income related benefits).

Note while not the nicest area of London suburbs the Job Seekers Allowance claimant rate is only 3% [1] with another 5.5% on Incapacity Benefit or Employment and Support Allowance. The vast majority of JSA claimants have been claiming less than 6 months rather than long term. [2]

There are particularly deprived pockets though but I question your ability to identify by pure observation outside a supermarket real income sources.

[1] http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/local_economic_assessment_overvie... (p iv)

[2] Same report (p 37)

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#104

Post by Trufa »

ProcessBlue wrote: post #87
belorn wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To my understanding, parents in Finland don't normally know the biological sex of the child before birth. If the box is given before the actually birth, then it makes sense to make the colors gender neutral.

The option to know (during the second ultrasound exam) is there, we for example did know. Some people choose not to know and many more keep the gender a secret from others until the baby is actually born.

Interesting, I understand not wanting to know and I also understand wanting to know, but why would people keep it a secret? (Just in case I'm not judging, just curious)

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#105

Post by jrokisky »

rlpb wrote: post #88
jan_g wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more than a baby box. I do not know how familiar you are with some European countries' social system, but young parents are usually given quite a few months of vacation time and salary from the state, a sort of children allowance until a child is 18 years old (100EUR or so), tax deductions for every child until a child is 18 years old, kindergarten 'bonuses', free health care for every child and similar. So this…

> And I am not arguing against it, just that in the end someone has to pay for it. What if it turned out that the baby pays for it because the improved average upbringing allows the baby to earn more and consequently pay more tax in absolute terms, though not in percentage terms? Would it be a cost to the taxpayer then?

I think this idea is often over looked. How much money/time is spent solving problems caused by overwork?

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#106

Post by beagle3 »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #89
jan_g wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more than a baby box. I do not know how familiar you are with some European countries' social system, but young parents are usually given quite a few months of vacation time and salary from the state, a sort of children allowance until a child is 18 years old (100EUR or so), tax deductions for every child until a child is 18 years old, kindergarten 'bonuses', free health care for every child and similar. So this…

... but young parents are usually given quite a few months of vacation time and salary from the state, a sort of children allowance until a child is 18 years old (100EUR or so)... In the US we earn 30% more money than Finland (adjusted for cost of living, which is quite high in Finland), so we can just pay for these things with savings if we want to. Most of us choose not to, suggesting these benefits are worth less…

More likely, you prefer not to pay because it costs way more than it should. I am not familiar with analysis of e.g. Day care costs, but Americans pay significantly more for healthcare than Europeans, and get significantly worse results; also, they pay significantly more for education and get significantly less.

The party line is that it is a preference - but anecdotally, I've only heard that preference from people who never really looked at the numbers, and from the obscenely rich.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#107

Post by arethuza »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #74

Now this is my kind of nanny state. A thought: This program started for low-income families but was extended after a few years to all families. The nice thing about universality rather than means testing is that a) middle class families are more apt to continue supporting it if they can experience its benefits first-hand; b) you save the money that would otherwise be spent testing, enforcing and auditing the system;…

One question I find interesting is to what extent governments should be in the business of building solidarity and shared values.

Personally, I'm all for it - but that's a product of my age (40s), location (Scotland) and where I grew up (a small village in the North of Scotland).

NB Having a father who served in the RAF during WW2 probably influenced me far more than I realised at the time - my political views around 20th century history are now almost identical to what his used to be.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#108

Post by simias »

schoper wrote: post #17

If we lived in a world where journalists knew the slightest bit about critical thinking: Hmm, I wonder if the cardboard box cuts Finland's infant mortality. Maybe I should look up infant mortality for Norway and Sweden? Oh, it's exactly the same as Finland's? Can't be the box then. I'm willing to bet that U.S. infant mortality is the same or even lower -- for people of Finnish descent.

I took it as a synecdoche, the cardboard box itself is obviously not very significant.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#109

Post by josephlord »

pointyhats wrote: post #4

They should do this in the UK. From observing the locals, the maternity grant (until yanked by the government) was used to buy designer gear for the mother, cigarettes and some expensive fashionable buggy for the baby (usually topped up by the baby's grandparents). Unfortunately essential stuff was forgotten. This solves those problems.

Having done a little research the grant is £500 available to parents receiving an income related benefit (including some in work benefits) [1].

It was changed a couple of years ago to apply only to first children rather than each child which I presume is the yanking referred to.

Essential stuff being forgotten. That happens there is a lot to learn quickly being a parent. Can you show that reckless spending caused necessary items not to be affordable when the error was realised?

"Expensive fashionable buggies" can easily cost more than £500, pushchairs are unsuitable for very young infants, those on low incomes are unlikely to have cars and may need a better buggy than those only nipping out of car although I'm sure there are solutions well under £500 especially if you look at 2nd hand.

I do agree that a universal box would be a good idea even though I'm not comfortable with your lazy tabloid stereotyping of "the locals". It may be that the box should be supplemented by a cash grant (of a reduced amount) for those currently entitled to the grant.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/sure-start-maternity-grant/overview

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#110

Post by king_jester »

arethuza wrote: post #107
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #74

Now this is my kind of nanny state. A thought: This program started for low-income families but was extended after a few years to all families. The nice thing about universality rather than means testing is that a) middle class families are more apt to continue supporting it if they can experience its benefits first-hand; b) you save the money that would otherwise be spent testing, enforcing and auditing the system;…

One question I find interesting is to what extent governments should be in the business of building solidarity and shared values. Personally, I'm all for it - but that's a product of my age (40s), location (Scotland) and where I grew up (a small village in the North of Scotland). NB Having a father who served in the RAF during WW2 probably influenced me far more than I realised at the time - my political views around…

The better question is why governments spend so much time trying to reenforce social stratification by placing so many qualifications on social programs.
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