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The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

foreignpolicy.com

181–190 of 223 posts

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. The cherry-picking on this topic is extreme. One guy claims Lehey was the leader of the U.S. Military during WWII. He was not. He was the senior-serving military official, who worked as chief of staff to Roosevelt . You could call him an early CJCS, or you could just use his title: chief of staff. Marshall was probably the closest we had to a senior person actually running the war, as anybody with a modicum o…

This is seriously misleading. The OP doesn't even mention William Lehey, let alone include a howler about him. And you accuse other people of red herrings! Surely if you had found even the tiniest flaw in the OP, you'd have shared it with us by now. Instead your comments are positively incontinent with innuendos and slurs: "UFO stories", "pseudo-science", "revisionists", "9-11 guys", "cherry picking", "selectively ar…

I don't even know what you're looking at. He was referring to this message upstream: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5815793

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#182
post #157
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet until a credible leadership figure actually _offered_ unconditional surrender, it was going to be war as usual. But it wasn’t. The A-bombs were quite unusual. They were extraordinary weapons, and would have required extraordinary justifications to use on the military, let alone on civilians. (To the argument that it wasn’t possible to target the military apart from civilians: that’s exactly why nuclear weapons ar…

You have the privilege of tarring the commanders of US forces as war criminals "of the highest gravity" because of the sacrifices US soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines made during WW2. If you haven't already, do some research on how the Japanese fought at Okinawa. At the defensive plans they had in place for defending the Home Islands. The toll of an invasion would have been horrendous for both sides. This is with…

> Furthermore, the idea that war should be "proportional" is also a sophomoric argument without merit. War is hell for a reason. If someone engages you in war, you fight them to the death. You don't go back and forth in a tit for tat manner that negates all of your advantages and magnifies theirs.

Did you just agree that people, army and paramilitary forces of Afghanistan are right to go to total war "to death" with the USA, USA army and USA civilians. Because even one innocent dead man in Afghanistan can justify action of, for example, poisoning NYC water supplies?

Or this "unproporional" punishment of enemy is justified only if it's the USA that is doing it, not when it suffers it?

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#183

I love UFO stories, and I love history, and I love pseudo-science. Hell, I even like counter-factuals. What if Lee had won at Gettysburg? What if Patton had actually commanded the Normandy invasion? And so forth. But these things are the province of speculation, not knowledge. Think for a minute about what this essay is asking "What if action X did not end the war in the Pacific?" Well dang, Action X could be just ab…

There is no excuse for killing innocents - in the name of whatever - America lost more than it gained by that single inhuman act of dropping Atom Bomb. War machines are still rattling - world peace is farther - But hope of a humanity not obliterated by the narrow confines of nation states and their propaganda and marching towards the goal of being at peace with itself and the universe lingers and that is what drives people like me.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is seriously misleading. The OP doesn't even mention William Lehey, let alone include a howler about him. And you accuse other people of red herrings! Surely if you had found even the tiniest flaw in the OP, you'd have shared it with us by now. Instead your comments are positively incontinent with innuendos and slurs: "UFO stories", "pseudo-science", "revisionists", "9-11 guys", "cherry picking", "selectively ar…

I don't even know what you're looking at. He was referring to this message upstream: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5815793

Yes, I know. And then he switched back to the OP as if the two were the same thing, when in fact they're entirely unrelated. That's the dictionary definition of a red herring.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#185

I love UFO stories, and I love history, and I love pseudo-science. Hell, I even like counter-factuals. What if Lee had won at Gettysburg? What if Patton had actually commanded the Normandy invasion? And so forth. But these things are the province of speculation, not knowledge. Think for a minute about what this essay is asking "What if action X did not end the war in the Pacific?" Well dang, Action X could be just ab…

This comment is contentless. It doesn't address a single specific thing the article says. Instead it offers woolly generalities ("Japan was threatened on many fronts and made the best choice it could. That much is clear") and platitudes ("all of the actions, taken together, were the reason for the war to end. Yes, Stalin played a big role. But it's not an either-or situation"). It sounds like it's saying something; i…

>I'm very curious now to hear a credible counterargument.

Well, Hirohito himself mentioned the bomb and its 'incalculable' destructive potential in his formal announcement of surrender.

So at the very least the bomb played a very substantial role in ending the war in the Pacific.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#186

I love UFO stories, and I love history, and I love pseudo-science. Hell, I even like counter-factuals. What if Lee had won at Gettysburg? What if Patton had actually commanded the Normandy invasion? And so forth. But these things are the province of speculation, not knowledge. Think for a minute about what this essay is asking "What if action X did not end the war in the Pacific?" Well dang, Action X could be just ab…

But atom bombs represented one thing that Stalin and fire-bombing did not: the end of Japanese culture.

What does that mean, and how is it supported by the historical evidence in the article or elsewhere?

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#187
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is contentless. It doesn't address a single specific thing the article says. Instead it offers woolly generalities ("Japan was threatened on many fronts and made the best choice it could. That much is clear") and platitudes ("all of the actions, taken together, were the reason for the war to end. Yes, Stalin played a big role. But it's not an either-or situation"). It sounds like it's saying something; i…

>I'm very curious now to hear a credible counterargument. Well, Hirohito himself mentioned the bomb and its 'incalculable' destructive potential in his formal announcement of surrender. So at the very least the bomb played a very substantial role in ending the war in the Pacific.

Thanks. It would be interesting to hear Ward's take on that; he must surely address it in the book the article was taken from.

On the other hand, according to [1], Hirohito also cited the Soviet invasion when convening the council to discuss surrender.

[1] http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/u6qqo/there_h...

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#188
I thought it was a very well written piece. I've seen lots of debate on this subject. The author brought a lot of evidence and work to the table for this. While its implications can be debated (what lessons can we draw from this?) a very strong case is made for the invasion being the cause for the end. Thanks for sharing. =)

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#189

I love UFO stories, and I love history, and I love pseudo-science. Hell, I even like counter-factuals. What if Lee had won at Gettysburg? What if Patton had actually commanded the Normandy invasion? And so forth. But these things are the province of speculation, not knowledge. Think for a minute about what this essay is asking "What if action X did not end the war in the Pacific?" Well dang, Action X could be just ab…

This comment is contentless. It doesn't address a single specific thing the article says. Instead it offers woolly generalities ("Japan was threatened on many fronts and made the best choice it could. That much is clear") and platitudes ("all of the actions, taken together, were the reason for the war to end. Yes, Stalin played a big role. But it's not an either-or situation"). It sounds like it's saying something; i…

The last section of the article actually argues against the article's stated conclusion, and it supports the statement you've replied to. This section, in particular:

> Attributing the end of the war to the atomic bomb served Japan's interests in multiple ways. But it also served U.S. interests. If the Bomb won the war, then the perception of U.S. military power would be enhanced, U.S. diplomatic influence in Asia and around the world would increase, and U.S. security would be strengthened. The $2 billion spent to build it would not have been wasted. If, on the other hand, the Soviet entry into the war was what caused Japan to surrender, then the Soviets could claim that they were able to do in four days what the United States was unable to do in four years, and the perception of Soviet military power and Soviet diplomatic influence would be enhanced. And once the Cold War was underway, asserting that the Soviet entry had been the decisive factor would have been tantamount to giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

Logically, this section asserts that the atomic bomb, though not successful in doing physical damage, actually created a political situation that allowed graceful surrender, and it aligned with the Japanese government's desire to preserve Japan's culture and forms of government. It's very difficult to speculate what the Japanese response would have been at this point had Hiroshima and Nagasaki been destroyed with conventional weapons. However, their way of life would have been more at risk without a clear way to appease the enemy, which we have evidence to suggest was on their minds.

It's important to note that the entire last section is speculation and offers no facts at all to support the claim that Japan consciously blamed the atomic bomb with these goals in mind. Yet, this is the crux of the article -- the idea that the atomic bomb won the war singlehandedly is a myth supported in part by the Japanese government's desire for self-preservation.

I think that's what the original reply author means when he says "all taken together." The atomic bomb clearly did not put a dent in the Japanese leadership's attitude, but, according to the article's speculation, it did allow them to make a life-saving decision more easily.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#190
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is contentless. It doesn't address a single specific thing the article says. Instead it offers woolly generalities ("Japan was threatened on many fronts and made the best choice it could. That much is clear") and platitudes ("all of the actions, taken together, were the reason for the war to end. Yes, Stalin played a big role. But it's not an either-or situation"). It sounds like it's saying something; i…

>I'm very curious now to hear a credible counterargument. Well, Hirohito himself mentioned the bomb and its 'incalculable' destructive potential in his formal announcement of surrender. So at the very least the bomb played a very substantial role in ending the war in the Pacific.

At the end of the article the author describes how (assuming his previous arguments are true) Japan's leaders would still have publicly cited the bomb as a strong reason for their surrender as it "served to deflect blame" from themselves.
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