Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Visual Studio 2013

blogs.msdn.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 201 posts

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#181

Post by malkia »

pjmlp wrote: post #41
CoolGuySteve wrote: post #22

I wish they would dedicate more time to improving cl.exe and link.exe in terms of performance and language support and less time with these hokey team visualization gimics. Every release since 2008 has been getting slower and slower for C++, the C compiler is awful, PGO instrumentation in Win8 is less capable, and there's no equivalents in the Windows ecosystem to gcc's likely/unlikely, oprofile, or valgrind. It's at…

C is officially deprecated. Personally I would like to see proper C++11 support instead of playing around with C++/CX and while they are at it, either provide a native compiler for .NET or improve NGEN's optimizer for C++ performance level. Given that Microsoft had .NET native compilers for Singularity and Windows Phone 8 .NET apps are compiled to native code, it isn't as if they don't have the tooling already availa…

What? Since when was the last time C++ ever produced external symbols readable by anyone else?

If mangling/decoration of symbols was standardized, and how to structure vtables, and how to handle exceptions, and etc. etc. etc. - then I can say "C is officially deprecated". Until then - C is still the lingua franca for native development.

Write in C++ all you want, but expose "C" interface - you would be accessible much easier from anywhere else.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#182

Post by malkia »

malkia wrote: post #177
bzbarsky wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Mozilla's case the _output_ is nowhere close to 2GiB. What hits the 32-bit limit is the link-time code generation, which has to have the entire program's AST, plus all the profiling information, plus whatever other data structures it's using in memory all at once.

Same with Qt5 and /LTCG - visual studio can't compile (I've tried out the 64-bit compiler targeting 64-bit since there is a 32-bit compiler targeting 64-bit too).

After checking again with my logs, it was failing while building QtWebkit (ahem - other posts explain it too).

For my custom Qt5 build, I've disabled /LTCG only for QtWebkit (32/64bit debug/release) and was able to deal with this limitation (at some other cost I guess)

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#183

Post by malkia »

pjmlp wrote: post #101
munin wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the WRK, ntoskrnl is all C...

Or a C++ subset in the near future, if the BUILD 2012 remark is true.

and most of all extern "C", possibly no exceptions, no RTTI, no global new/delete, etc. - e.g. "embedded"-C++ like (only guessing).

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#184

Post by malkia »

yuhong wrote: post #145
pjmlp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C is officially deprecated. Personally I would like to see proper C++11 support instead of playing around with C++/CX and while they are at it, either provide a native compiler for .NET or improve NGEN's optimizer for C++ performance level. Given that Microsoft had .NET native compilers for Singularity and Windows Phone 8 .NET apps are compiled to native code, it isn't as if they don't have the tooling already availa…

On that matter: https://twitter.com/fearthecowboy/status/288721251374071808 Notice I also ranted about VS2012, Win8 SDK, Metro Firefox, and XP.

Sometimes it's harded than that. For example in Windows XP, if you have __declspec(thread) variable then it won't work if it's in DLL (this has been fixed since Vista).

Not really a compiler, but more like linker/loader problem. If the __declspec(thread) is in the main .exe it works.

Things like this affect for example ANGLE (WebGL) when compiling for XP, as such one would have to resort to TlsAlloc/TlsFree.

It's just an example, where an OSS might've used the gcc/clang primitive for thread-safe var, and later someone does it for Visual Studio, only to understand later that it won't work when in DLL for XP.

Now I know XP is no longer supported, but a lot of OSS projects still target it. (and probably lots of others).

Then again, it's not such biggie, for example Elmindreda, the GLFW developer was really kind to re-implement the feature once I reported the problem.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#185

Post by malkia »

samirahmed wrote: post #16
evo_9 wrote: post #8

Way way way way, WAY too soon Microsoft... most shops, including my current employer aren't even on 2012 yet... Honestly I prefer VS to be tied to desktop OS releases or SQL release or something other than yearly. This is not a Madden game, nobody is asking for yearly updates for Visual Studio.

I find this response almost shocking. Most of HN criticizes microsoft for slow releases cycles, slow change but the Visual Studio has clearly made progress for the better by addressing UserVoice requests, integrating Git etc. If your employer is to slow to keep updated, why should that slow MSFT down for you while the it is trying to reinvent itself, just catch up in 2015.

If your employer is developing PLUGINS for a specific certain other product, then it has to stick to the COMPILER the product was released for (CRT/C++ runtime compatibility).

So here is one reason. Another one - is money - why spend every (or two) years money on product that is not bringing that much to the table (for a lot of projects at least I've been)

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#186

Post by pjmlp »

malkia wrote: post #183
pjmlp wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a C++ subset in the near future, if the BUILD 2012 remark is true.

and most of all extern "C", possibly no exceptions, no RTTI, no global new/delete, etc. - e.g. "embedded"-C++ like (only guessing).

Most likely yes.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#187

Post by qu4z-2 »

FactoryFactory wrote: post #68
ajross wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Often the problem with these queries is that there are not enough devs complaining to MSFT. No PM/engg manager is going to ignore a bug/problem if it shows up high in customer requests. Note that you switch between "devs" and "customer" there. I argue that the real problem is that for VS those demographics are different. Devs in "Microsoft shops" don't go out and decide on a complier, they use VS because that's all…

>But you're right, that clearly the "devs" have preferences. The problem with your mechanism is that they don't express them to you in customer service requests. They just job-hop to another environment, doing Javascript work, or Linux, or Ruby. And you never hear from them. >Basically, the way feedback works in this world is with feet, not bug reports. If you build it they will come. If you don't they will leave. Is…

For what it's worth, I've been using SharpDevelop almost full-time at work. Then again, I'm more of a Linux guy working at a .Net shop because "Hey, why not. C# is nice enough"

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#188

Post by yuhong »

terrymah wrote: post #162
yuhong wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one thing, I don't think their JIT produces code that properly follows the Windows x64 ABI yet. It really should be disabled in 64-bit builds until they do.

Following the ABI is only an issue at module boundaries. If you control every callsite of a function, you can invent whatever calling convention you want.

But you still need the function tables and follow prolog/epilog conventions with x64 for SEH to work.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#189

Post by idwhence »

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #155
terrymah wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current VS-compiler dev here, the backend codegen team to be more precise (I actually own PGO). I wish this comment had been written in few days/weeks/months so I answer directly and talk specifics about some of the work that went into VS2013, but for now I just want you to know we've aware of all of the issues you brought up, and have either worked on or plan to work on many of them. RE: likely/unlikely, VS has __as…

I work on an extremely latency sensitive application. The choice of Windows predates me, and frankly, it was a massive mistake. I am never working on Windows again after this job. Here's some feedback for low latency development in Visual Studio. Try not to take it personally, I don't hate you, I just hate every MSVC I've ever used: - With a profiler, we typically see only a few hundred samples in our simulation runs…

On a related topic - may I seriously ask how we as a community of technologists can help change the tone directed at our brothers and sisters in code? It's no wonder more people from Microsoft don't bother engaging when the first (so far only) reply is a hostile tirade about random collection of complaints that have nothing to do with the person being replied to.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#190

Post by com2kid »

idwhence wrote: post #189
CoolGuySteve wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work on an extremely latency sensitive application. The choice of Windows predates me, and frankly, it was a massive mistake. I am never working on Windows again after this job. Here's some feedback for low latency development in Visual Studio. Try not to take it personally, I don't hate you, I just hate every MSVC I've ever used: - With a profiler, we typically see only a few hundred samples in our simulation runs…

On a related topic - may I seriously ask how we as a community of technologists can help change the tone directed at our brothers and sisters in code? It's no wonder more people from Microsoft don't bother engaging when the first (so far only) reply is a hostile tirade about random collection of complaints that have nothing to do with the person being replied to.

I'll be perfectly honest, when I was working on the MS compiler team (for CE), I just sort of got used to it.

But yes, thick skin is required for those who self identify!

Then again I have always held the view that if my users are unhappy, it is a personal failing on the part of my team and myself. (Although I am low enough on the software engineering totem poll that I can't really do anything outside of ensure components I create are as user friendly and high quality as possible!)

Post reply on HN