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Visual Studio 2013

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Re: Visual Studio 2013

#171

Post by mitchi »

cpeterso wrote: post #82
sriramk wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ex-VS person here (from 5 years ago though). It is never an either-or. It is always a complex mix of what customers ask for, what the strategic priorities/market realities are. Often the problem with these queries is that there are not enough devs complaining to MSFT. No PM/engg manager is going to ignore a bug/problem if it shows up high in customer requests. On promotions - I think it's the reverse problem. People…

Mozilla has been fighting the MSVC linker's 3GB virtual address space limit for years. Mozilla has asked Microsoft for a 64-bit linker that can produce 32-bit code, but Microsoft apparently has no plans for such a configuration. https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/mozilla.d...

If you compile with /LARGEADDRESSAWARE and run the executable on win7 64 bits, your process has a maximum of 4 gigabytes of ram. I know, I tested it up to 3.6 g. Not bad at all!

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#172

Post by pjmlp »

rbanffy wrote: post #122
pjmlp wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understood Microsoft shops as Windows ISVs, if he meant companies 100% committed to Microsoft tooling then you are right and I made an hasty comment.

For every Windows ISV there are a hundred companies where the software development toolchain is chosen by someone with nothing more than a thin grasp of the concepts involved. They read in magazines the new shiny IDE has better team support and integrates seamlessly with Exchange and the SharePoint intranet deployed last year. But let's be realistic here. Most of those shops will never hire someone to write C++ code.…

Or they get someone like us that moves code from C++ to Java and .NET, because C++ is legacy.

The last time I managed to do a full greenfield C++ project at work was around 2005.

The enterprise has moved away from it long time ago and incoherence talk of Microsoft about going native does not help.

If they are serious about that I would expect proper C++11 support and improve ngen to the point I could use it as a real native code compiler. Not dumb UI changes.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#173

Post by pjmlp »

trust-me wrote: post #125
pjmlp wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Update 3 was the last one. Maybe Microsoft is tight on money. :)

VS is not there to make money directly, but to sell MS platforms - Windows, SQL Server, etc. They give it away for free to students, startups and pretty much anybody who asks. The only reason all editions are not free is to not kill the other commercial Windows IDEs.

Really? You don't have to pay for licenses I imagine.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#174

Post by pjmlp »

danbruc wrote: post #118
pjmlp wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if there was only one issue, that is an issue to spend effort working around it if you're the poor soul that needs to do the fix for the product that broke.

I am still unable to see the problem. It's your decision if you switch to 4.5 or not. If you have projects targeting 4.0 and are unable to ensure that you code does not hit any of the documented breaking changes or if you are unwilling to take the risk of hitting unknown or undocumented compatibility problems, then don't switch to 4.5. Or take a hybrid solution - develop against 4.5 but test against 4.0. We have devi…

In our case teams that are supporting .NET 4.0 are not allowed to upgrade for .NET 4.5, precisely because of the .NET 4.5 bug fixes that lead to different behaviors between versions.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#175

Post by ximeng »

sriramk wrote: post #31
CoolGuySteve wrote: post #22

I wish they would dedicate more time to improving cl.exe and link.exe in terms of performance and language support and less time with these hokey team visualization gimics. Every release since 2008 has been getting slower and slower for C++, the C compiler is awful, PGO instrumentation in Win8 is less capable, and there's no equivalents in the Windows ecosystem to gcc's likely/unlikely, oprofile, or valgrind. It's at…

ex-VS person here (from 5 years ago though). It is never an either-or. It is always a complex mix of what customers ask for, what the strategic priorities/market realities are. Often the problem with these queries is that there are not enough devs complaining to MSFT. No PM/engg manager is going to ignore a bug/problem if it shows up high in customer requests. On promotions - I think it's the reverse problem. People…

Top voted on SQL Server Connect is a relatively simple issue (on the face of it) that's been outstanding for 8 years in two separate tickets, with no meaningful response from MS.

https://connect.microsoft.com/SQLServer/Feedback

I think devs don't complain because there's not much point.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#176

Post by malkia »

ajross wrote: post #71
FactoryFactory wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But you're right, that clearly the "devs" have preferences. The problem with your mechanism is that they don't express them to you in customer service requests. They just job-hop to another environment, doing Javascript work, or Linux, or Ruby. And you never hear from them. >Basically, the way feedback works in this world is with feet, not bug reports. If you build it they will come. If you don't they will leave. Is…

Well, just to address the first point there is undeniably an "exodus" from Visual Studio. Just look at all the code shipped to run in browsers, or iOS, or Android, or on node or rails. A decade and a half ago a far (far!) greater fraction of that was spend in a Microsoft IDE. But that's really not the point. The upstream discussion was much narrower, and focused specifically on C/C++ support, which frankly sucks in t…

Almost all video games are produced in Visual Studio, more or less. Even the one for Sony/Wii (plugins/extensions in Visual Studio, etc, although using different compilers).

That accounts for a lot of software out there.

And no, I don't like Visual Studio, but it's the best tool out there for the majority of the people I work with.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#177

Post by malkia »

bzbarsky wrote: post #168
marshray wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclosure: I'm a new guy at Microsoft, not in the VS team, just speaking from prior experience as a Win32 developer. There are still internal limits in the PE32 format which mean parts of the output as a whole will be limited to 2 GiB or so, regardless of the address space available to the linker. I too have hit internal linker limits from time-to-time, but the span of computing history in which it makes sense to ha…

In Mozilla's case the _output_ is nowhere close to 2GiB. What hits the 32-bit limit is the link-time code generation, which has to have the entire program's AST, plus all the profiling information, plus whatever other data structures it's using in memory all at once.

Same with Qt5 and /LTCG - visual studio can't compile (I've tried out the 64-bit compiler targeting 64-bit since there is a 32-bit compiler targeting 64-bit too).

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#178

Post by pointyhats »

trust-me wrote: post #123
pointyhats wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try R# with VS in a solution with 54 projects and ~ 1.5MLOC... It stinks!

Are you serious? That's a medium size project, just get a fast machine (e.g. i7 4770) and you'll be perfectly fine.

I've got an 8 core 3.0 Xeon with 32Gb RAM and Samsung 840. It's still slow.

It's more latency than long waits but it's enough to stop me using it.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#179

Post by pointyhats »

ximeng wrote: post #175
sriramk wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ex-VS person here (from 5 years ago though). It is never an either-or. It is always a complex mix of what customers ask for, what the strategic priorities/market realities are. Often the problem with these queries is that there are not enough devs complaining to MSFT. No PM/engg manager is going to ignore a bug/problem if it shows up high in customer requests. On promotions - I think it's the reverse problem. People…

Top voted on SQL Server Connect is a relatively simple issue (on the face of it) that's been outstanding for 8 years in two separate tickets, with no meaningful response from MS. https://connect.microsoft.com/SQLServer/Feedback I think devs don't complain because there's not much point.

Very true.

It took me 9 months and 45 calls to support to get a relatively simple regression in IE9/ClickOnce fixed and all we got was a fucking registry fix that we now have to ship to 2000 clients.

Basically they broke ClickOnce in IE9 for launching via scripts due to the new download prompting stuff.

Neither the framework team or IE team wanted to take responsibility leaving my poor support rep to reverse engineer both products.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#180

Post by malkia »

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #155
terrymah wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current VS-compiler dev here, the backend codegen team to be more precise (I actually own PGO). I wish this comment had been written in few days/weeks/months so I answer directly and talk specifics about some of the work that went into VS2013, but for now I just want you to know we've aware of all of the issues you brought up, and have either worked on or plan to work on many of them. RE: likely/unlikely, VS has __as…

I work on an extremely latency sensitive application. The choice of Windows predates me, and frankly, it was a massive mistake. I am never working on Windows again after this job. Here's some feedback for low latency development in Visual Studio. Try not to take it personally, I don't hate you, I just hate every MSVC I've ever used: - With a profiler, we typically see only a few hundred samples in our simulation runs…

I also have this gripe - why every version of Visual Studio has to change so much drastically the CRT version, thus requiring new DLL and breaking all plugins that happen to be linking to some other version.

This basically means, if you are using (say) Autodesk products, you have to compile all your plugins with exactly the same version the main product (exe) was compiled.

This is absolute mess. Talk about 7 different MSVCRxx.DLL and MSVCPxx.DLL in one process.

Why can't you think of scheme where backward compatibility works for the CRT/C++RT too?

Oh, and on naming things - please stick with VS2012 -> CRT2012 if possible.

Also why ShortName / PlatformName in VisualStudio is named so crazy - one amd64/x64 vs Win32/x86 - and then SDK's coming from Microsoft would place in the lib/ folder things sometimes with lib/$(ShortName) and sometimes with lib/$(PlatformName).

I know why - because these things are not important. Just hard-code it in your .vcxproj and live a happier life :) Automation begone!

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