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Visual Studio 2013

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Re: Visual Studio 2013

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this response almost shocking. Most of HN criticizes microsoft for slow releases cycles, slow change but the Visual Studio has clearly made progress for the better by addressing UserVoice requests, integrating Git etc. If your employer is to slow to keep updated, why should that slow MSFT down for you while the it is trying to reinvent itself, just catch up in 2015.

Most of HN criticizes microsoft for slow releases cycles Just because it's trendy to bash MS for not releasing new browsers/IDEs/whatever every few weeks, that doesn't mean the vocal critics speak for all of us, nor even necessarily for the majority. I get paid to build stuff that works, and doing so requires stable foundations and reliable tools. Lately, I wish we had more Microsofts in the world paying attention to…

>Lately, I wish we had more Microsofts in the world paying attention to things like backward compatibility and long-term support, and fewer Googles and Mozillas and Apples who are quite happy to push out updates that break useful things that worked before.

Did you mean forward compatibility?

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#152
post #11
post #8

Way way way way, WAY too soon Microsoft... most shops, including my current employer aren't even on 2012 yet... Honestly I prefer VS to be tied to desktop OS releases or SQL release or something other than yearly. This is not a Madden game, nobody is asking for yearly updates for Visual Studio.

Seriously! My company has been keeping up with the latest stuff but I have hard time understanding what the justification was behind releasing a whole new Visual Studio version. Are there new features that won't be available in VS 2012? I guess we'll see at the Build conference.

VS 2013 is for Windows 8.1.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#153
Link is down for me.

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Description: An application error occurred on the server. The current custom error settings for this application prevent the details of the application error from being viewed remotely (for security reasons). It could, however, be viewed by browsers running on the local server machine.

Details: To enable the details of this specific error message to be viewable on remote machines, please create a tag within a "web.config" configuration file located in the root directory of the current web application. This tag should then have its "mode" attribute set to "Off".

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#154
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But you're right, that clearly the "devs" have preferences. The problem with your mechanism is that they don't express them to you in customer service requests. They just job-hop to another environment, doing Javascript work, or Linux, or Ruby. And you never hear from them. >Basically, the way feedback works in this world is with feet, not bug reports. If you build it they will come. If you don't they will leave. Is…

Well, just to address the first point there is undeniably an "exodus" from Visual Studio. Just look at all the code shipped to run in browsers, or iOS, or Android, or on node or rails. A decade and a half ago a far (far!) greater fraction of that was spend in a Microsoft IDE. But that's really not the point. The upstream discussion was much narrower, and focused specifically on C/C++ support, which frankly sucks in t…

Undeniably? Not quite.

Your reasoning is really faulty because you aren't accounting for overall growth in the industry. If the world Irish population increases by 20% does this mean that the Asian population shrunk? Of course not.

Consider that Tablet and Smartphone platforms are in addition to flat PC sales. http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/feb/01/tablets-cro...

http://www.wcu.edu/ceap/houghton/edelcompeduc/ch1/handhelds/...

Same goes for the world wide web in general. http://www.businessinsider.com/how-many-web-sites-are-are-th...

You can't say logically that because there are more rails sites there are less Microsoft ones.

C# is pretty popular here: http://langpop.corger.nl/

here as well:

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index....

And that doesn't count non-C# .net ecosystem languages.

Could there be an exodus? Sure, but your reasoning is just wrong here.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#155

I wish they would dedicate more time to improving cl.exe and link.exe in terms of performance and language support and less time with these hokey team visualization gimics. Every release since 2008 has been getting slower and slower for C++, the C compiler is awful, PGO instrumentation in Win8 is less capable, and there's no equivalents in the Windows ecosystem to gcc's likely/unlikely, oprofile, or valgrind. It's at…

Current VS-compiler dev here, the backend codegen team to be more precise (I actually own PGO). I wish this comment had been written in few days/weeks/months so I answer directly and talk specifics about some of the work that went into VS2013, but for now I just want you to know we've aware of all of the issues you brought up, and have either worked on or plan to work on many of them. RE: likely/unlikely, VS has __as…

I work on an extremely latency sensitive application. The choice of Windows predates me, and frankly, it was a massive mistake. I am never working on Windows again after this job.

Here's some feedback for low latency development in Visual Studio. Try not to take it personally, I don't hate you, I just hate every MSVC I've ever used:

- With a profiler, we typically see only a few hundred samples in our simulation runs, the rest, between 99.999% and 99.99999% of the samples are in WaitForSingleObject. PGO compiles only 0.4% of our application for speed, and our response times are about 20 usecs slower with it on.

- RE xperf (and WinDbg): Stop bundling this shit in "Toolkits". The installers/downloaders are buggy as fuck and break the main VS2012 installer; I don't want to run a bunch of random msi files on our prod server core box; and the download pages are a maze of redirects.

- __assume is so useless. How often does someone write a branch that does nothing every time? We need manual size/speed optimization.

- PogoAutoSweep crashes threaded programs if you don't suspend every other thread but it's still quasi documented. The PogoSafeMode build flag/environment appears to be ignored.

- The filename postfix that PogoAutoSweep adds breaks the VS2012 PGO menu options.

- The VS2012 PGO instrumented/optimized menu items overwrite the target exe. So when you realize somethings wrong in the environment or click something by mistake and didn't manually reshuffle the build dir, you have to rebuild everything. Name the target .instrument.exe or put it in another or something please.

- There's nothing one can do to limit the VS2012 profiler to specific threads. I was able to write hooks to target threads in VerySleepy in an afternoon, but somehow this feature escapes MS.

- The interface for instrumenting specific functions is terrible, use a plain text file or decl_spec FFS.

- If there are #defines or other ways to detect an instrumented build, they're terribly documented.

- PGO instrumentation/optimization is woefully obtuse. What did it pick for speed? Why did it pick it? What branches did it fold/unfold? How does the pgc weighting actually work? Can I artificially create my own pgc?

A perl script that compares the offsets in objdump will give me more information than most of the MSDN articles about this shit.

- Not related to our main response loop, but we can see in our logging threads that the LFH malloc appears to often call RtlAnsiStringToUnicodestring. Seriously, what the fuck?

- Speaking of which, changing the malloc implementation is still horrible even after the VS2010 msvcrt changes. In linux, you can change LD_PRELOAD and try out tcmalloc or the Intel tbb allocator in about 3 minutes. In Visual Studio, prepare to spend a few hours getting a reasonably large project to build with these.

- Why is there SemaphoreSlim in C# but not C++? Why is there no Benaphore primitive that can also be used in WaitForMultipleObjects?

- Serious issues in Microsoft Developer Connect are often ignored, closed as behaves as expected, or dismissed off hand. For example, I was tearing my hair out over this one, and the resolution is truly outrageous: http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/7...

I am certain that this comment on Hacker News will make a bigger impact than anything I've ever seen on Microsoft Connect.

- RE Instrumenting profilers/bounds checkers: Any project that is reasonably large and has multiple configs/3rd party libraries is bad enough to manage in vanilla Visual Studio that instrumenting it with some other 3rd party plugin becomes a serious time sink.

- There is still no valgrind/cachegrind equivalent that provides the same level of detail. The closest thing is either Intel Pin or Rational Purify/Quantify and they are expensive and poor substitutes. Microsoft is the only company that can see and modify the source of the kernel, runtime, linker, and machine code generation, so I don't know who else they expect to write this for them.

- Our statically linked application takes 20 minutes link and the link is not parallel. C++ compiles are likewise brutally slow. We resort to developing in VS2008 and compiling release stuff in VS2012. And no, I'm not going to turn on precompiled headers, MSVC builds incorrect binaries about 5% of the time as it is.

- Concerning precompiled headers, sharing a single pch file across projects or strictly controlling a single vcproj/vcxproj with the compiled unit is de facto impossible.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#156
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

btw, Google Chrome doesn't have a 64-bit version* for Windows. The Chrome team also disabled PGO on Windows because of the same MSVC linker limitations that Mozilla hit. * Edit: oops, I corrected a typo where I wrote "32-bit build".

You mean a 32-bit build system ?

Sorry, I had a typo in my post. I mean Chrome for Windows is a 32-bit application. There is no 64-bit Chrome for Windows.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#157
Former member of the Visual Studio ALM team here.

ALM is that is where the money is. Higher-ups in orgs are much more willing to pay for oversight and management features than language features.

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#158
post #8

Way way way way, WAY too soon Microsoft... most shops, including my current employer aren't even on 2012 yet... Honestly I prefer VS to be tied to desktop OS releases or SQL release or something other than yearly. This is not a Madden game, nobody is asking for yearly updates for Visual Studio.

[deleted]

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes a lot of difference to some PHB's, though. I'm pretty sure I can upgrade to a service pack. Changing versions, OTOH, probably requires approval from management.

It sounds like you have bigger problems than can be addressed by the hard-working people in Redmond.

Undoubtedly, you're correct :)

Re: Visual Studio 2013

#160
post #129
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Server farm builds. A keyboard macro system that doesn't suck (e.g., is available and /as fast/ as the one in Emacs). A way to compare project configurations without involving either XML or a sea of random dialog-like boxes. The TFS and workflow features they are adding make me weep.

> A keyboard macro system that doesn't suck (e.g., is available and /as fast/ as the one in Emacs). FWIW the Zeus IDE has keyboard macros that can be recorded/written in Python, Lua, Javascript or VB Script and it can even import VS woskpaces.

Yeah. But.

The VS keyboard macro system has "overengineered" written all over it. Really all they had to do was record some keystrokes. Instead they probably had a team of like four engineers, a bunch of Q/A and several PMs on it, and it took them over a year. And the result /stinks/; it blows dead exploding goats.

Sigh.

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