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The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

foreignpolicy.com

71–80 of 223 posts

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#71
I love UFO stories, and I love history, and I love pseudo-science. Hell, I even like counter-factuals. What if Lee had won at Gettysburg? What if Patton had actually commanded the Normandy invasion? And so forth.

But these things are the province of speculation, not knowledge.

Think for a minute about what this essay is asking "What if action X did not end the war in the Pacific?"

Well dang, Action X could be just about anything. The fact of the matter is that all of the actions, taken together, were the reason for the war to end. Yes, Stalin played a big role. But it's not an either-or situation; it's an amalgam. The logical structure of trying to support a statement such as "The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan" is flawed. It's like saying the landing on Tarawa didn't beat Japan. Well no, and yes. The assertion itself is flawed.

While I love all sorts of semi-non-fictional essays, I have a little warning bell that goes off when I'm mostly through an essay and the essayist starts telling me a story about how I've been misled. Smells of a political agenda and manipulation.

Japan was threatened on many fronts and made the best choice it could. That much is clear. Atom bombs did not cause as much building and population damage as the fire-bombing did. That's also clear. But atom bombs represented one thing that Stalin and fire-bombing did not: the end of Japanese culture. A few dozen atom bombs would not only have made huge holes in the landscape, it would have erased the culture of Japan.

Nobody is finding comfort in simplistic stories. In fact, the more details people know, the happier I am. But dropping the bombs on Japan saved millions of both Japanese and allied lives. It served as a quick end to a long war, and it saved thousands of allied prisoners whom the Japanese were ready to execute. It also allowed the great Japanese culture to continue.

Most serious historians don't get into counter-factuals, except maybe as fiction. It just doesn't work.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#72
post #32
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they try to argue an indefinite (Japan would have surrendered if we hadn't done this) against a definite (We bombed them and they surrendered immediately) No, the article is not arguing against a factual claim like that, but against a causal one: that Japan surrendered because of the atomic bombs. The latter may be the mainstream view but it's just as "indefinite" by your standard. And causal claims can be weakened b…

> Also, one of the article's major claims (its first, in fact) is that Japan didn't surrender immediately. I find it hard to reconcile this idea with the relatively persuasive reasoning that the second bomb was unjustifiable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings... I am not entirely convinced that it was so, but I do think it is reasonable that a few days is not sufficient time to understand t…

>I am not entirely convinced that it was so, but I do think it is reasonable that a few days is not sufficient time to understand the full magnitude and novel nature of such an event.

The article addresses this.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#73
post #53
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, one of the article's major claims (its first, in fact) is that Japan didn't surrender immediately. I find it hard to reconcile this idea with the relatively persuasive reasoning that the second bomb was unjustifiable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings... I am not entirely convinced that it was so, but I do think it is reasonable that a few days is not sufficient time to understand t…

Different people read these things differently, of course, but it seems to me that the article's factual claims—for example, that Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't of such dramatic magnitude as we think, in context; or that there weren't many city targets left to destroy—answer your objection. If the article is wrong it must be either because its facts are wrong or because it leaves out more important facts. It's true t…

Well, from what was immediately observable to anyone who wasn't in the city at the time, the result really wasn't uniquely dramatic. The radiation and the fact that a single plane with a single bomb did it were game-changers but to anyone outside the city looking in it would appear to be another fire-storm bombing, albeit larger than Dresden and in a far shorter time-frame than Tokyo.

That is why I think it really would take more time for things to settle in after a single bomb. The second bomb drives home the "yes, this really is what it looks like; this isn't like before." factor.

I think it would have taken more time for a complete appreciation of what happened at Hiroshima to sink in. Whether or not a complete appreciation of that single bombing would have lead to surrender is debatable, I'm inclined to think not.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#74
post #42

In the first couple pages there is an argument made that the Japanese supreme council didn't seem to react to news of the first bomb and the associated casualties. I don't think it is easy for us today to understand how slow information was to travel during the time of the war nor is it easy for us to understand how incomprehensible it would be to accept reports about a single bomb creating as much destruction as was…

That's why the author lists a number of examples from roughly the same time period (or earlier e.g. Lincoln/McClellan) as a means of comparison. It's anecdotal, to be sure, but then again this is history, not science.

The two examples given were of a singular leader responding to something that called for immediate action.

The Japanese were hardly in a position to strike back against the atomic bomb. In the absence of an obvious response, it's not surprising that it took time for their leaders, a group, to come to a decision to surrender, considering their culture and society.

(I do agree that the role of the Soviets is indeed underplayed, but in its desire to make a point the article overreaches.)

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#75
post #41
post #40

The article seems determined to assign a single cause as the reason for the timing of the surrender when I think it is quite more likely that it was an accumulation (and a rapid one at that) of serious developments that precipitated that end. Claiming "Stalin did it" when there had also just been an atomic attack and an entire summer of horrendously devastating attacks, that the Japanese were almost powerless to defe…

Article writers don't come up with the headlines. In this case the headline does the author a bad disservice by making his piece seem simple-minded. It isn't. Its strongest parts come before he even gets to discussing the Soviet invasion. Those are (a) his dissection of the timeline by which surrender unfolded, and (b) his case that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not outliers in the destruction of Japanese cities and th…

I'm starting to think not many people actually read the article. Though to be fair, the first 3 or so pages are just build up, and I almost ejected out of skepticism, too.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#76
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the fact he sent >12 million of his own citizens to slave and die in the Gulag in Siberia could have made it difficult to cast him as a hero. For a depressing account of the Gulag and other aspects of life under Stalin's rule, read a few of Solzhenitsyn's books.

Where did you get that from? The total number of Stalin's victims is around 1.5 million. EDIT: I misread. It's about double, 3 million. Unreliable figure in any case.

From Wikipedia's entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag):

"... during the period of 1928–53, about 14 million prisoners passed through the system of GULAG labour camps and 4-5 passed through the labour colonies."

Original source: Robert Conquest in 'Victims of Stalinism: A Comment.' Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 49, No. 7 (Nov., 1997), pp. 1317-1319 states: "We are all inclined to accept the Zemskov totals (even if not as complete) with their 14 million intake to Gulag 'camps' alone, to which must be added 4-5 million going to Gulag 'colonies', to say nothing of the 3.5 million already in, or sent to, 'labor settlements'."

Subtracting the ~1.5M foreign prisoners of war, the 12M estimate seemed like a reasonable minimum number of Russians sent to the Gulag.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#77
post #48
post #10

This is why I've started to dislike revisionist history. The premise that the threat of Stalin alone forced Japanese surrender is at least as ludicrous as saying that the nuclear bombs alone forced Japan to surrender. I closed the page immediately because of the full-page popup ad, but I've encountered the premise elsewhere so it warrants examination. The first thing to realize is that for Japan, whatever else happen…

"This is why I've started to dislike revisionist history." History is a science. This is as if you said: I don't like Max Planc or Niels Bohr Dirac, since they were questioning classical mechanics in favor of some hard to understand mambo-jambo called quantum mechanics. A true historian is a die hard revisionist, someone who is chasing "conspiracy theories" to reveal the truth using scientific reasoning based on evid…

> A true historian is a die hard revisionist

Nonsense. A true historian is one who connects the present to the past, allowing us to make informed decisions for a better future. Not someone who sits in an armchair concocting new theories about what really happened. That's nothing more than mental masturbation.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#78

I love UFO stories, and I love history, and I love pseudo-science. Hell, I even like counter-factuals. What if Lee had won at Gettysburg? What if Patton had actually commanded the Normandy invasion? And so forth. But these things are the province of speculation, not knowledge. Think for a minute about what this essay is asking "What if action X did not end the war in the Pacific?" Well dang, Action X could be just ab…

>But these things are the province of speculation, not knowledge.

Here's the opinion of the leader of the US military at the time.

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons." -Fleet Admiral William Daniel Leahy (May 6, 1875 – July 20, 1959), the senior-most United States military officer during th Second World War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_D._Leahy#Atomic_bomb

The bomb was dropped not to win the war, but to intimidate the USSR.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#79
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, one of the article's major claims (its first, in fact) is that Japan didn't surrender immediately. I find it hard to reconcile this idea with the relatively persuasive reasoning that the second bomb was unjustifiable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings... I am not entirely convinced that it was so, but I do think it is reasonable that a few days is not sufficient time to understand t…

>I am not entirely convinced that it was so, but I do think it is reasonable that a few days is not sufficient time to understand the full magnitude and novel nature of such an event. The article addresses this.

We must be reading different articles. The extent to which the article covers this it appears to be agreeing with me. Basically that they heard there was a bombing, did not consider it a crisis, and had not yet received their full reports.

The article argues that the surrender could not have been motivated by the bomb because the timing was wrong and they did not yet have a full appreciation of what happened. To this extent, the article meshes neatly with the assertion that the second bomb was dropped before the first was understood.

However, the notion that the bombs would not have made them surrender is not supported by the fact that they did not surrender following the bombs. They did not have time to do so. It is an unknown if they would have, had they been given more time.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#80
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you get that from? The total number of Stalin's victims is around 1.5 million. EDIT: I misread. It's about double, 3 million. Unreliable figure in any case.

1.5 million is a comically low estimate. Where did you get your figure? Over 3 million died in the Ukrainian collectivization political famine alone.

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