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The Cost of an ACL Injury

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Re: The Cost of an ACL Injury

#21
post #9

This is absolutely shocking to me. Had my ACL replaced in the UK privately about 8 years ago (no health insurance, paid out of pocket). Total cost was £3000 (+ £600 for initial scan). I could have got it done for free on the NHS but it would have messed up my term time at university. Like the OP I had meniscal tearing too so more or less directly comparable. (Although obviously 8 years is probably a long time in medi…

We hear about medical tourism from the US to India, Thailand, etc., but with these kinds of price discrepancies between the US and UK private practices, I wonder why there aren't more Americans who go to the UK for surgery?

The fraction of patients without insurance but with enough cash and motivation to fly to the UK purely to seek savings on medical treatment has got to be fairly tiny.

My impression is that medical tourism from the U.S. is not typically for cost savings, but rather because particular procedures are either completely unavailable (experimental stem cell treatments) or could require long wait times (liver transplants). I'd love some data on this. Wikipedia's rather poorly written article suggests MT is more popular from countries with socialized systems in order to reduce wait time, but I'm skeptical.

Re: The Cost of an ACL Injury

#22

this is an amazing article for me since I also tore my acl and am considering getting the reconstruction described in the article done, any one out here who recommends/ does not recommend this ? I am developer with a 9-6 desk job and usually go jogging rarely and don't find time to work out due to a busy schedule

If you don't plan on playing semi-competitive sports ever again, I wouldn't recommend surgery. It's all about the planting of the foot and changing direction, which you don't do with straight line activities like running or biking.

Forget about working the first week after surgery. You need to elevate and extend your leg constantly for the first few months, which gets uncomfortable when sitting.

Pre-surgery you need to strengthen the muscles around the knee to speed up recovery, so my physio got me to go to the gym 3X a week for two months, biking hard. Post-surgery you need to use some gym equipment as home rehab doesn't cut it.

Also it takes two years to fully heal. After seven months I could hike and bike, but now I'm sixteen months in and only now have started to play light competitive sports again. However mine is more complex as I have torn miniscus and some residual scar tissue that may be removed in the future. Let me know if you have other questions about the process, it's a long one!

Re: The Cost of an ACL Injury

#23
Wow, so much of that is overpriced.

The medication costs, especially the fluids, are much higher. I checked a UK pharmacy for costs for buying small amounts so the discount they get for buying in bulk suggests a very large mark up in price.

Re: The Cost of an ACL Injury

#24
I also had my ACL replaced (hamstring autograft), in SF, about 2.5 years ago after a basketball injury.

I'm pretty sure these prices are starting 'list' prices, whereas the negotiated/'allowed' cost that you and your insurance company actually wind up paying tends to be 1/2 to 1/3 these numbers.

My surgery was also about 3 months after the injury, which isn't optimal. It took me a few weeks to see a doctor, I didn't like the 1st doctor I saw, and by the time I'd settled on a preferred one, I needed 6 weeks of physical therapy to undo some of the post-injury weakening of surrounding muscles. (Since there's also atrophying due to surgical damage and post-surgery immobilization, it's best for recovery for the muscles to be as strong as possible going in. So diagnosis/surgery ASAP after injury, with muscles nearly at their pre-injury best, is preferred... if you suspect your ACL is torn see a doc quickly!)

Re: The Cost of an ACL Injury

#25
post #18
post #4

Why don't the medical tools get reused? That seems absolutely insane to me.

I've heard from someone who was involved in this that sterilizing medical equipment that you can't autoclave is seriously non-trivial. And certainly not free, nor is autoclaving, including the inevitable human errors that will result in incompletely sterilized equipment, plus there are all sorts of tradeoffs made here. I'm just old enough to have had glass syringes used on me, they're thick, heavy and obviously much…

Metal tools seem quite simple to autoclave. That said, they should also be pretty cheap to make (unlike the $900 knife in the article).

Re: The Cost of an ACL Injury

#27
post #9

This is absolutely shocking to me. Had my ACL replaced in the UK privately about 8 years ago (no health insurance, paid out of pocket). Total cost was £3000 (+ £600 for initial scan). I could have got it done for free on the NHS but it would have messed up my term time at university. Like the OP I had meniscal tearing too so more or less directly comparable. (Although obviously 8 years is probably a long time in medi…

Similar to my experiences as well. I once compared the price of a knee MRI scan across several countries by calling folks I knew.

This is why I was dumbfounded by the call for "innovation" in medical industry at the end of the post. There's plenty of innovation is going on, it's the corruption and extortion we're looking at here: $60K were simply extorted from a person in pain.

It's a legislation+law enforcement issue.

Re: The Cost of an ACL Injury

#29
A few things to consider:

1) You can't turn an operating room immediately. A 1hr surgery requires significant prep time _AND_ cleaning time. These rooms are used for many different kinds of surgeries — changing everything takes time. To make matters worse, each surgeon has their own preferred set up, and it needs to match that.

2) All medical supplies are expensive in part because your body is pretty sensitive, and you need to be careful about what's in there, but also because doctors almost always have _COMPLETE_ control over what equipment they use ... including screw and tool brands. This means that hospitals have little-to-no leverage to get lower prices. This is particularly true for implants & other complicated equipment.

3) Insured people subsidize the uninsured.

Re: The Cost of an ACL Injury

#30
So, I have a few questions.

> Going in, I had anticipated that doctors would take the lion’s share of the costs. I was surprised when the facilities ended up being the dominant cost; over 40% of the total.

Is that because you're paying for the cost of nurses here, rather than breaking that cost out elsewhere?

> This centimeter-wide cutting machine cost $900 according to the price sheet.

That seems to be a bit much. I'm used to silly prices for tools and equipment in electronics, but still. Perhaps they're charging you for the whole tool, and not just the disposable blade? (Which would seem to be a bit cheeky.) Have you tried to get a price quote from anywhere else? (http://www.arthrex.com/products/AR-2285-10) Because they sometimes turn up on Ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Arthrex-AR-2285-10-Parallel-Device-1...)

> but the blades get thrown out after just a single use

One reason for that, at least in the UK, and maybe this is historical, is because of diseases like CJD.

But as ISL said a sharp blade is a good blade and when you're slicing people you want the best blades you can get.

> Most of the other drugs cost between $40-60 per dosage.

In England everything is free at the point of delivery. Medications are a bit different. If you're in hospital they're free. Most people get exemptions from paying. The people who do pay need to pay about £7.50 per line item per month. There are discounts for people who need a lot of meds.

> The screws and washer are made out of titanium. I haven’t had any problems with MRIs or the metal detectors at the airport, but they do show up very clearly on my x-rays:

When my father died he had left me his artificial knees in his will. Luckily he had also asked to be cremated, so it was nice and easy to get them.

What I'm particularly curious about is why this market doesn't seem to work.

Insurance companies want customers to pay them. Insurance companies don't want to pay too much to hospitals because that's cutting the margins. So why don't insurance companies seem to be driving the costs down? Are insurance companies equipped to investigate the costs reported by hospitals?

Some kind of anonymised crowd-sourced data would let people know if their operation was around the same price as other people were paying. Perhaps you'd need to break the price down so people were able to compare similar things.

I hope your knee heals well and that you start to feel the benefit of that surgery!!

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