The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan • Hacker News Board

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#21

Post by ChuckMcM » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:29 PM UTC

The challenge I have with this, and pretty much all 'alternate history' foreign policy discussions, is that they try to argue an indefinite (Japan would have surrendered if we hadn't done this) against a definite (We bombed them and they surrendered immediately).

There isn't any way to prove that stuff of course, and you can tweak the indefinite to be whatever you want to overcome the definite. So in some ways it is simply mental gymnastics and great fodder for writers of fiction.

The further we get away from the events of those times the easier it is to second guess those decisions and not be challenged by someone with first hand knowledge of the events.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#22

Post by rocky1138 » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:30 PM UTC

mpyne wrote: post #10

This is why I've started to dislike revisionist history. The premise that the threat of Stalin alone forced Japanese surrender is at least as ludicrous as saying that the nuclear bombs alone forced Japan to surrender. I closed the page immediately because of the full-page popup ad, but I've encountered the premise elsewhere so it warrants examination. The first thing to realize is that for Japan, whatever else happen…

It was really annoying. I ended up using viewtext.org. There's a chrome extension for handy HN reading.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#23

Post by Finster » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:30 PM UTC

unoti wrote: post #4

Wow, what an annoying travesty that sign on page is, and whatever all that other stuff was. I understand they have to make a buck and can do whatever they like with their content, but that was powerfully annoying. I imagine content providers have spent a lot of time anguishing over how they can extract money from users, but I wonder if this is the best way. No way am I going to figure out how to get through the multi…

Right-click -> Inspect Element -> Delete Node

Pretty easy to get the popup and the overlay.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#24

Post by rocky1138 » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:31 PM UTC

cowpow wrote: post #2

Is there a link that doesn't require the user to login?

Use the viewtext.org chrome extension. Works a charm, even concatenating the six pages.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#25

Post by cheath » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:38 PM UTC

unoti wrote: post #4

Wow, what an annoying travesty that sign on page is, and whatever all that other stuff was. I understand they have to make a buck and can do whatever they like with their content, but that was powerfully annoying. I imagine content providers have spent a lot of time anguishing over how they can extract money from users, but I wonder if this is the best way. No way am I going to figure out how to get through the multi…

or just use safari reader/iReader for chrome.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#26

Post by Eva_Peron » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:38 PM UTC

Stalin has always been under-rated in the United States. Truth was, he was a hero who helped to defeat the Nazis and Imperial Japan. But saying that undermines those who want Churchill and FDR to take all the credit.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#27

Post by gruseom » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:44 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #21

The challenge I have with this, and pretty much all 'alternate history' foreign policy discussions, is that they try to argue an indefinite (Japan would have surrendered if we hadn't done this) against a definite (We bombed them and they surrendered immediately). There isn't any way to prove that stuff of course, and you can tweak the indefinite to be whatever you want to overcome the definite. So in some ways it is…

they try to argue an indefinite (Japan would have surrendered if we hadn't done this) against a definite (We bombed them and they surrendered immediately)

No, the article is not arguing against a factual claim like that, but against a causal one: that Japan surrendered because of the atomic bombs. The latter may be the mainstream view but it's just as "indefinite" by your standard. And causal claims can be weakened by evidence, which is what most of the article tries to do.

Also, one of the article's major claims is that Japan didn't surrender immediately. That argument is more intricate and interesting than I expected.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#28

Post by JPKab » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:46 PM UTC

Eva_Peron wrote: post #26

Stalin has always been under-rated in the United States. Truth was, he was a hero who helped to defeat the Nazis and Imperial Japan. But saying that undermines those who want Churchill and FDR to take all the credit.

A hero who was a megalomaniacal mass murderer who killed any and all who had the audacity to speak their mind.

Ask any Jewish person what they think of Stalin.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#29

Post by mpyne » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:48 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #21

The challenge I have with this, and pretty much all 'alternate history' foreign policy discussions, is that they try to argue an indefinite (Japan would have surrendered if we hadn't done this) against a definite (We bombed them and they surrendered immediately). There isn't any way to prove that stuff of course, and you can tweak the indefinite to be whatever you want to overcome the definite. So in some ways it is…

It's also easier to second-guess when it is not you or your children that would be in the invasion force. The U.S. is still using Purple Hearts that were produced during WWII for the expected casualties of the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands.

Re: The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan

#30

Post by mpyne » Mon, Jun 03, 2013, 6:49 PM UTC

Eva_Peron wrote: post #26

Stalin has always been under-rated in the United States. Truth was, he was a hero who helped to defeat the Nazis and Imperial Japan. But saying that undermines those who want Churchill and FDR to take all the credit.

The primary contribution of the U.S.S.R. (with U.S. material assistance) to the defeat of the Nazis is absolutely undeniable.

But I don't normally see "Stalin" and "hero" used on purpose in the same sentence either...