Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What is Happening in Istanbul?

defnesumanblogs.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

411–420 of 519 posts

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#411

Post by yzhengyu »

enraged_camel wrote: post #255
api wrote: post #158

"These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no «hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its…

Wow. I am speechless. As someone who was born and raised in Turkey, and visited Singapore for long periods of time, let me say very clearly: you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Turkey and Singapore are two completely different worlds, with different histories, cultures, and geopolitical situations, and are not related in any shape or form. There may be a few surface-level parallels, but that's wher…

As a Singaporean who just spent the last hour or so rapidly scanning through Turkey's history, it seems the situation in both countries is the entrenchment of political power within a single party.

As for corruption in Singapore, well, let me just say that one of the caveats of these corruption indices is that whether you perceive it. If you are a foreigner visiting Singapore or even a local living here for a while, your daily life in general will probably be pleasant as long as you are not involved in any form of political activism.

Most of the shenanigans in Singapore are related to politics and how the incumbent party has maintained its power. There is a reason for Singapore being placed in the nether regions (144th rank in the Press Freedom Index) in various press freedom rankings and why we are labeled as a "hybrid regime".

As for people who keep gushing about Singapore and how awesome our country is, all I have for them is a wintry smile and the old phrase, "Not all that glitters is gold".

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#412

Post by Tloewald »

enraged_camel wrote: post #382
Jun8 wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, reading your comment, especially in the light of how distraught Erdogan seemed in his 1.5 interview with Fatih Altayli, it definitely seems off. Also, Erdogan's party is not a homogenous block, although he's holding everybody in check right now. Even now, some dissident voices among AKP intelligentsia started worrying about the loss of support. Assuming the government will go after a few days of riots is naive;…

The interview was staged, or at least well-rehearsed. You will notice that Altayli could not dare to ask any serious questions or question Erdogan's reasoning in any shape or form. Basically, Altayli is a spineless coward and lost the respect of the Turkish people. (He reminded me of the way Wolf Blitzer moderated some of the presidential debates here in the US. Blitzer also didn't have the balls to ask anything diff…

Blitzer has always been useless.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#413

Post by Tloewald »

venus wrote: post #235
JDShu wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't understand your criticism here. The entire point of the post was that Singapore is a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom. Singaporeans (or at least the ones who are left) happen to be willing to accept less freedoms in exchange for economic success, but it doesn't take an especially libertarian mindset to decide that you'd rather prize political freedom over…

> a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom I'm not arguing with that. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it has been conclusively proved that being able to exercise that freedom leads to a better society, and it is that end we should be thinking about, not the means. > decide that you'd rather prize political freedom over wealth Long term, if political freedom doesn't…

I think you could make the case that Singapore is a dictatorship in a kind of English tradition just as the US is a democracy with the same broad tradition. Despite some differences in detail, broad cultural values are actually pretty close (language probably being a huge contributing factor).

To put it another way: Singapore uses strong central government to achieve the same kinds of effects Americans will cheerfully use other means (e.g. Disneyland, gated communities, giant shopping malls) to achieve.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#414

Post by Tloewald »

venus wrote: post #327
simonh wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not arguing with that. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it has been conclusively proved that being able to exercise that freedom leads to a better society, and it is that end we should be thinking about, not the means. There is a problem with centralised political power, and that's that if a nastier, more corrupt and less tolerant clique gets hold of that power there is absolutely nothing that can st…

> There is a problem with centralised political power Well yes, of course. Even the laziest student of history knows that. I am not trying to advocate for that extreme end of the range of political possibilities. The elephant in the room, though, is that the other extreme - our hyper-egalitarianism; giving everyone, by birth, no matter how uninformed, no matter how disinterested, an unchallenged vote does not seem to…

Australian democracy works quite well with compulsory voting. It seems to have been improved by the "compulsory" part. (It's not very compulsory -- you can show up and submit a blank ballot or not show up and pay a small fine that isn't really enforced, but the effect is significant.) The US political system suffers in significant part from deliberate attempts to disenfranchise huge sectors of society. Black people, or poor people, say. In what first world country do you need to queue for three hours (and I did this in Arlington — one of the richest places in the US, not Mississippi) to vote on a working day?

Democracy isn't the problem in itself, flawed as it may be, but US democracy suffers from special self-inflicted problems: it's a government created by people who were suspicious of government AND democracy, so it's unmanageable by design. To be fair, democracy was an untried idea at the time, but the US is stuck with ridiculous artifacts of those early doubts.

We have a right to bear arms that cannot easily be undone or moderated but no right to, say, transportation, communication, or health care. Our abortion laws were magically derived from some other inferred right rather than designed by legislators with reference to experts (which is how abortion laws everywhere else work) so it's literally a war between people who think a pregnant mother has no rights over her own body until the child is born and other people who think she should be able to kill the baby right up until it's born. In Australia (IIRC) it's twelve weeks or to save the mother's life. No other democracy has this problem.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#415

Post by eru »

Tloewald wrote: post #413
venus wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom I'm not arguing with that. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it has been conclusively proved that being able to exercise that freedom leads to a better society, and it is that end we should be thinking about, not the means. > decide that you'd rather prize political freedom over wealth Long term, if political freedom doesn't…

I think you could make the case that Singapore is a dictatorship in a kind of English tradition just as the US is a democracy with the same broad tradition. Despite some differences in detail, broad cultural values are actually pretty close (language probably being a huge contributing factor). To put it another way: Singapore uses strong central government to achieve the same kinds of effects Americans will cheerfull…

Actually, we do have giant shopping malls and some form of gated communities in Sinagpore, too. Disneyland didn't quite make it, despite some attempt in the 90s (I think), but there are other themeparks.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#416

Post by eru »

jckt wrote: post #372
scribu wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, are you suggesting a) that in the USA you are _legally_ allowed to kill others and to pollute? or b) that no, the USA doesn't legally allow that, but in practice it does (any stats on how many guilty people got off the hook?) or what?

There is a difference between laws based on principle, and laws based on observation. I think Singapore has been a model based on empirical observation -- tightly controlled, but prosperous and happy (vague terms, admittedly), despite what most people think (I think most of the people on HN hating on Singapore have actually never been there, let alone know anyone from there). Contrast this with the USA, whose laws ar…

> I think Singapore has been a model based on empirical observation -- tightly controlled, but prosperous and happy (vague terms, admittedly) [...]

The expats are happy enough (and the locals I know), but according to surveys, people aren't all that happy. Rather numb, in fact.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#417

Post by jasonlingx »

nairteashop wrote: post #331
tome wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If caning its own citizens is not evidence of a nanny state that treats people like children, I don't know what is. Not that I want to sound like a supporter Singapore's judicial system but I didn't expect to hear this from a citizen of a country that is allowed to kill as a form of punishment. (Making the assumption that you are from the US, apologies if I got that wrong).

No, you got it right (I'm not american, but I live here). And I absolutely agree with you - like caning, capital punishment has no place in an enlightened country, and I sure hope it is eradicated from the US, and throughout the world, soon. I was merely disagreeing with the parent's assertion that Singapore has some form of enlightened government that doesn't trample on personal freedoms, and treats its citizens wit…

> I was merely disagreeing with the parent's assertion that Singapore has some form of enlightened government that doesn't trample on personal freedoms, and treats its citizens with respect.

I made no such assertion. But perhaps you should enlighten yourself on exactly what personal freedoms are being trampled upon here, and how exactly Singapore's citizens are being disrespected. You just made a bullshit statement that you can get caned for littering in Singapore. What else of your opinion of Singapore is based on similar ignorance?

Next you are going to tell me chewing gum is banned in Singapore (gasp!). And I'm going to quote you something random from http://itthing.com/100-weird-laws-from-around-the-world (let's go with "In Indiana, it’s against the law to dress ‘Barbie’ in ‘Ken’s’ clothes" this time)

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#418

Post by eru »

dmix wrote: post #278
justin66 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the fusion of authoritarian quasi-fascist rule with capitalism Were the two ever separate?

Never, for long periods of time. Modern societies have never really lived without a large state. So almost every new society (or post-revolution) in history adopted that same practice. But usually with new limitations. The problem is that once the state is instantiated and given broad power, their power continues to grow and expand out of self-interest and desire for control. Regardless of capitalism or socialism. As…

What do you mean by a "large state"? Measured in government expenditure as part of GDP there are big variations between countries. (Incidentally, Singapore has one of the smallest states around.)

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#419

Post by eru »

notahacker wrote: post #257
geuis wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You entirely miss the point. He's holding up Singapore as a shining example of the end-state of affairs that the government of Turkey is trying to emulate. Since we don't have a word for it yet, or we haven't learned it, we're saying "Singaporification" as a placeholder. People might have said "Nazification" before the word "fascism" was well defined.

Sure, but he's also making spurious generalizations which appear to owe more to a 1993 William Gibson article than any understanding of the motivations or actions behind Singaporean paternalism or Turkish modern Islamism, which are not at all alike. Throwing in Franco's Spain - certainly the Western European country whose economic policy priorities least resembled Singapore's - doesn't help matters. Other than a not-…

> They've managed to leave more trees intact than central Istanbul too. :)

Last time I was in Turkey, they had a huge greenery programme going on in Anatolia (i.e. I saw it in Ankara and surroundings). Interesting, that Istanbul had its tree cover reduced.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#420

Post by jasonlingx »

pkinsky wrote: post #288
jasonlingx wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously trying to say you can get caned for littering in Singapore? It is exactly this kind of ignorant statement spoken as if it were fact that irks me.

http://www.businessinsider.com/absurd-laws-of-singapore-2012... >Singapore also differs from the United States where penalties are determined by a judge;breaking certain laws in Singapore can come with mandatory decisions that still include cane beatings. At least attempt some research

> At least attempt some research

And did your research tell you that you can get caned in Singapore for littering?

Post reply on HN