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My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

talentism.com

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Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#91
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he's at least going to be familiar with what it takes to play the system. That comment makes your perspective the complete opposite of the author's. The author kid moves his chess pieces randomly and the author writes a blog post about how the rules are not fair. You likely teach that sometimes you have to follow the rules to play the game. This blog post reads like like a fool arguing that the rules of chess are s…

If the world actually followed school-like rules, your analogy would be useful. But it doesn't. The recipe for "winning" the game of school is: - follow directions very carefully - be good at memorizing things - never challenge authority The market value of being able to carefully follow directions is nearly zero, and falling fast. That was a useful skill back when there were lots of good-paying factory jobs. Now it…

> follow directions very carefully - be good at memorizing things - never challenge authority

I have yet to meet a smart person that can't do these things with ease. The only modification I would make, is to "only challenge authority when it is in your best interest to do so." It is generally best to go around authority or ignore it if the consequences are manageable. Challenging authority is generally a waste of time.

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#92
A few years ago, I read The End of Homework: How Homework Disrupts Families, Overburdens Children, and Limits Learning by Kralovec and Buell. The authors build a well-presented case against homework for children younger than high-school age based upon their claims that there is little evidence that homework for younger children has any long or short term benefit.

The authors observe that homework is disruptive to family dynamics because it is an ongoing source of conflict between parents and their children. They also observe that the primary reason schools assign homework to younger children is because parents demand it. Both of these observations are consistent with my experience both within my own family and my observations of the families of my child's peers.

On the other hand, I have no way of verifying or denying the author's claims about homework studies failing to demonstrate long term benefits from homework.

Overall, I am glad I read it because it gave me some perspective on the issue. My son still is responsible for doing his homework, and we as parents clearly communicate this to him. Anyway, if you're parenting, I'd say it's perhaps worth checking out.

As an aside, I strongly recommend Juliet Schor's Born to Buy: The Commercialized Child and the New Consumer Culture about the way corporations have come to market to children - and it's probably only gotten worse with them having online lives.

End of Homework: http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Homework-Disrupts-Overburdens/...

Born to Buy: http://www.amazon.com/Born-Buy-Commercialized-Consumer-Cultu...

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Winning is easier than being right, and winning is much more fun. Hence why we have a society full of puppets with new cars in the garage. What an awful way to think, I'm disgusted by your reasoning. For whatever meaning of "winning" you have, life only matters if you do what you believe in, otherwise it's not worth living.

So in this case, 'what you believe in' is not following the instructions as to which size of paper to use? This is what my mom always referred to as 'cutting off your nose to spite your face.'

If my face was more concerned about the media I attached my work to than my work itself, I would definitely cut off my nose to spite it. FUCK YOU, FACE!

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#94
post #10
post #3

After hiring committee one day, we digressed into a discussion of the value of a high GPA from university. One of my colleagues made the point that the value of an individual with a high GPA from a four year degree is that you know the person will get done what needs to get done. To have a high GPA, a student needs to finish term papers on subjects they have no interest in, they need to study for exams in language fo…

I suspect few people are reliable at all tasks, that there is a spectrum of reliability on arbitrary/tedious/unmeaningful tasks, and that where you fall on that spectrum is unrelated to how reliable you might be at meaningful work. In other words, I think your hiring committee is fallaciously flattening out human nature. For all I know that works fine for you, so don't let me stop you. But: your last sentence was pre…

In no way is GPA the only dimension on which we evaluate candidates. The discussion arose when we asked if it was useful at all. And I agree with my colleague, it is indeed useful in predicting self control and persistance.

I do however agree with you about the last comment. If there were not already replies, I would edit it to make the point in another way. But the intention is still the same. The time not being spent on homework, in the case of the article, is being spent on entertainment.

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#95
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But I cut him much less slack than I was given as a kid." Could work great. Could also end up inhibiting his executive function and turning him into a heroin addict. The formula for success is multiplicative: Ability * Motivation * Opportunity. If any one of those factors is zero, success is zero despite how much of the others you have. The thing about forcing kids to do their homework is there's no such thing as a…

I agree. The approach I'm taking is a semi-educated guess. I could well be wrong.

[deleted]

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#96
post #64
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the world actually followed school-like rules, your analogy would be useful. But it doesn't. The recipe for "winning" the game of school is: - follow directions very carefully - be good at memorizing things - never challenge authority The market value of being able to carefully follow directions is nearly zero, and falling fast. That was a useful skill back when there were lots of good-paying factory jobs. Now it…

First, that's not actually the only recipe for "winning" the game of school; it's just the one that occurs most vividly to people who dislike school. I disliked school too, and did poorly at it, approaching it as a system only solvable by the approach you outlined. Now that I'm a couple decades removed from attending school, it's obvious --- painfully obvious, like so much that I often see opportunities that my son w…

Oh, I know it's eminently playable, because I played it like a fiddle. I did extremely well, while investing the minimum effort required.

My only secret for excelling at school was that my natural interests happened to coincide with the things school expects you to do. So I was intrinsically motivated to do most of them, and whenever intrinsically motivated people compete with extrinsically motivated people, it's hardly a competition at all.

Motivation dominates all other factors in learning. Nothing else comes close. People who want to learn something learn it orders of magnitude faster and more reliably than people who don't really care. Piles of psychological research back this up.

For example, if you actually wait to teach a child arithmetic until he or she expresses a genuine interest, a typical child can master all of elementary school math in about 20 hours of instruction. Reading is similar -- once the fire is lit, with a little phonetic guidance, a typical kid can become a fluent reader in weeks, not months.

So the real art of education becomes inspiring the desire, and then being ready to strike when the iron is hot. School actively thwarts this pattern.

> Second, the point of learning how to play the school system isn't to be good at school. It's to be good at handling systems in general. Different systems, different constraints, but there are meta-lessons to be learned in dealing with any of them.

That kind of general experience is something you get no matter what you're doing, so long as you're interacting with other human beings. The real question is whether school teaches better meta-lessons than other kinds of experience.

In school, all work is simulated. The worst and best possible outcomes are both abstract letters on a piece of paper. Contrast this with something as simple as putting a child in charge of planning a camping trip, and the variety of outcomes they'll experience and learn from. Nothing teaches responsibility like having to explain to your friends that you forgot to pack breakfast.

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps that is because they focused too much on so-called "real" work and never developed their art enough to make a living. Perhaps they need so much money because they went to a university to learn what is free at any library.

Or no one is willing to pay enough for their skills.

There's the problem. You're focused on selling skills, rather than works. Selling your labor is going to ensure you stay a wage slave.

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#98

Paying bills is stupid. Cleaning house is boring. Going to work EVERY day is stupid. Following rules is stupid. Doing what you're told is stupid. etc etc etc. Bwahahaha - your kid is screwed. The world is full of arbitrary and down right stupid rules (assuming he ever gets a job, he'll love the tax codes that apply to him, but not to rich people or corporations). You need to straighten out his young punk ass - and do…

I really hope your daughter causes you massive problems when she goes through puberty and rebels. You sir, are an ass.

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#99
guy I hate to say it - but is is either school or other talents. you can't half ass both and get away with it. it is either C student and entrepreneur-facilitating, marketable outside talents or A student and no-little outside talents. B student and mediocre outside talents will lead to mediocracy and failure. so decide which you want to encourage. i would go for outside talents but you better make damn sure your son has the right tutor, influences, and environment to hone his natural inclinations outside the traditional academic system.

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#100
post #78
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the world actually followed school-like rules, your analogy would be useful. But it doesn't. The recipe for "winning" the game of school is: - follow directions very carefully - be good at memorizing things - never challenge authority The market value of being able to carefully follow directions is nearly zero, and falling fast. That was a useful skill back when there were lots of good-paying factory jobs. Now it…

The market value of being able to memorize easily searchable facts is nearly zero, and falling even faster. Any test that can be "cheated" by using Wikipedia is testing a totally useless skill. (Useful tests are still hard when you have access to all the internet.) Memorization is not useless! The ability to access certain information in sub-speed latency is a valuable skill and should be learnt. This is called cache…

> the basic you should memorize, because you will use them over and over again

But that's a self-solving problem. Anything you truly use over and over again will become readily memorized. And people are demonstrably good at memorizing that kind of information.

My issue is with memorizing things that the learner has no intrinsic motivation to memorize.

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