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My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

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Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#61
post #3

After hiring committee one day, we digressed into a discussion of the value of a high GPA from university. One of my colleagues made the point that the value of an individual with a high GPA from a four year degree is that you know the person will get done what needs to get done. To have a high GPA, a student needs to finish term papers on subjects they have no interest in, they need to study for exams in language fo…

I interviewed thousands of new college grads. The guys who I made offers to were almost always guys who did stuff on their own. Right before I retired, the last guy I made a job offer to showed me an app he had written for his iphone that simulated how particles diffuse in a solvent, and his resume showed a link to the code that he wrote. His GPA was only a 3.5. But I totally got him: he was great because he had a pa…

This is an irrational model for evaluating a candidate's talent. The best way to evaluate a candidate's talent is to make them code for you, plain and simple. Many people's motivations in university diverge from their motives in the professional world. Some people will work much harder when the result is a paycheck every two weeks, or when they have to feed a family, or because they see their work career as distinct from their academic career. But for the sake of argument, let's play along with this naive model.

The university they attended matters almost as much as their GPA, as we all know that professors will tend to curve the difficulty of their course to conform to the quality of the students they are teaching.

And you have an illogical attitude towards 3.9-4.0 students. Almost every student who attends an Ivy-caliber school had a 3.9-4.0 in high school. Surely, you aren't implying that the quality of a CalTech CS graduate is lower than the quality of a UCLA CS graduate, because the CalTech students' one-time GPA was likely a 4.0. And you certainly can't be saying that Ivy-caliber students are sheep who blindly jump through hoops.

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#62
If I can impart one thing I've learned in my life to my child, it will be this: no one cares how smart or talented you are. They care about what you do. What you accomplish.

Some of the things you accomplish are great things that only you could do--your life's work. Accomplishing these will among the greatest experiences of your life.

But a lot of the things you accomplish will seem pointless and boring. Doesn't matter--you still need to do them. In school it's homework; in real life it's time sheets, contracts, taxes, auto registration, insurance, memos, etc. Accomplishing these will suck...but you still need to do them. In fact failing to do so is a good way to keep yourself from having the opportunity to accomplish great things.

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#63
How do you win a rigged game? Stop playing the game and make everyone else play your game.

According to my parents, I was exactly like your son in the mid 80s. They homeschooled me to make sure I wasn't held back from my potential.

It wasn't without its challenges, but nothing is. I'm doing pretty well now. I had a brief foray into "doing what I was told" in college, and figured out it was not going to get me to graduate with the grades I wanted, so I found an adviser who understood me, who would trust I could take care of myself and just sign off on my self-directed path through my degree. I had a longer foray after college (it seems I learn certain lessons slowly) and eventually grew so sick of getting up early every morning and driving an hour to work in shitty traffic that I just quit.

I quit everything for almost a year. For a year, I worked the hardest I've ever worked on whatever I wanted. And it got me nowhere.

Except...

Except it taught me that the world can't destroy me. It taught me that I'm capable of so much and it is only myself to blame for submitting to bosses or procrastination for not getting it done (and really, doing what your boss tells you to do is a form of procrastination). Everyone told me I was going to be ruined, that I'd not find work again because I'd been off so long "in this economy!" Dire consequences were in store for me, to not grovel at the feet of the recruiters, to not beg for my old job back. Bunch of lily-livered cowards. No such thing happened, and the idea is patently absurd. No, the only thing that can destroy me is myself.

I see all these people saying "You gotta pay your dues" and "sometimes you just have to suck it up and do what you're told".

And it is such complete and utter fucking bullshit. You don't have to do a single god damn thing you don't want to in this world. The world won't destroy you. You gotta buy this car to drive to work, drive to work to pay for this car. Yeah, screw that. What the hell do you need a degree for when the only people who are getting anywhere in this world are doing it by starting companies and getting out of the rat race? What the hell do you need a recruiter for when the only jobs they have to give you are going to make you a miserable son of a bitch?

What the hell do you need anything for? All you really need is a pencil and some paper, and the only reason you need that is because it's the only way to communicate with enough people. Write. Write. Write. Draw. Compose. Program. Mathematicate. A robot can dig a ditch for you, so why are you digging ditches? Do the one thing that humans can do that computers cannot: create. Don't let anyone tell you what to create. Create whatever you want. People fail not because they fail to create the right things, they fail because they fail to create anything.

And to all you people in here, talking about "you have to play the game," "that's the system," "deal with it": you're certainly free to ruin your own life, but leave the poor, damn kids alone.

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#64
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he's at least going to be familiar with what it takes to play the system. That comment makes your perspective the complete opposite of the author's. The author kid moves his chess pieces randomly and the author writes a blog post about how the rules are not fair. You likely teach that sometimes you have to follow the rules to play the game. This blog post reads like like a fool arguing that the rules of chess are s…

If the world actually followed school-like rules, your analogy would be useful. But it doesn't. The recipe for "winning" the game of school is: - follow directions very carefully - be good at memorizing things - never challenge authority The market value of being able to carefully follow directions is nearly zero, and falling fast. That was a useful skill back when there were lots of good-paying factory jobs. Now it…

First, that's not actually the only recipe for "winning" the game of school; it's just the one that occurs most vividly to people who dislike school. I disliked school too, and did poorly at it, approaching it as a system only solvable by the approach you outlined.

Now that I'm a couple decades removed from attending school, it's obvious --- painfully obvious, like so much that I often see opportunities that my son won't give a chance that make me want to shake him --- that if you pay attention to the directions and give even a little thought to how you might push on the apparent constraints the school provides, school is eminently playable.

Second, the point of learning how to play the school system isn't to be good at school. It's to be good at handling systems in general. Different systems, different constraints, but there are meta-lessons to be learned in dealing with any of them.

Disobedience is valuable when it's valuable.

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#65

Paying bills is stupid. Cleaning house is boring. Going to work EVERY day is stupid. Following rules is stupid. Doing what you're told is stupid. etc etc etc. Bwahahaha - your kid is screwed. The world is full of arbitrary and down right stupid rules (assuming he ever gets a job, he'll love the tax codes that apply to him, but not to rich people or corporations). You need to straighten out his young punk ass - and do…

art is not a real job?

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#66
post #56
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if he doesn't like "playing the game"? No dinner?

You're making a flippant comment, but as I think all parents know, there is a baseline level of compliance you can safely expect to achieve for reasonable effort. What if your kid doesn't like "going to school in the morning"? What if your kid doesn't like "turning the lights out and trying to go to sleep after 1:00AM"? It is worth recognizing the difference between compliance that comes at great cost and compliance…

I ask because I personally know a handful of people who dropped out of high school to take on high paying jobs, some athletic and some technical. If your kid is intelligent and has a passion for something that deviates from traditional paths, what should you do?

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#67

“My teacher didn’t like the project, because I put it on the wrong size paper.” Either you are bullshitting, or you better learn what size paper to do your homework on. Winning is easier than being right, and winning is much more fun. I don't have a teenage kid, but there I think there are two thing that are important. 1) Acquiring new knowledge should be self-rewarding. 2) Winning is fun. This parent seems to have a…

> Winning is easier than being right, and winning is much more fun. Hence why we have a society full of puppets with new cars in the garage. What an awful way to think, I'm disgusted by your reasoning. For whatever meaning of "winning" you have, life only matters if you do what you believe in, otherwise it's not worth living.

So in this case, 'what you believe in' is not following the instructions as to which size of paper to use? This is what my mom always referred to as 'cutting off your nose to spite your face.'

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#68
post #3

After hiring committee one day, we digressed into a discussion of the value of a high GPA from university. One of my colleagues made the point that the value of an individual with a high GPA from a four year degree is that you know the person will get done what needs to get done. To have a high GPA, a student needs to finish term papers on subjects they have no interest in, they need to study for exams in language fo…

No. Just no. Academia != real-world work.

If the school system's mandate is to prepare and evaluate students for the workplace, it is not doing a very good job.

The style of work and incentive systems differ greatly between your typical company and university. The differences in incentive systems are obvious, so I won't delve.

But as for the style of work, I recall that in university, professors would ask students to write a computer program on PAPER for exams. Sure, there is some overlap between that and a workplace environment. But at the end of the day, it is not simulating a real-world work environment, where you would be able to run and test your program, debug it, look up little tidbits on Google, and so forth, before checking it in.

Re: My Son Won't Do His Homework (2007)

#70
post #66
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're making a flippant comment, but as I think all parents know, there is a baseline level of compliance you can safely expect to achieve for reasonable effort. What if your kid doesn't like "going to school in the morning"? What if your kid doesn't like "turning the lights out and trying to go to sleep after 1:00AM"? It is worth recognizing the difference between compliance that comes at great cost and compliance…

I ask because I personally know a handful of people who dropped out of high school to take on high paying jobs, some athletic and some technical. If your kid is intelligent and has a passion for something that deviates from traditional paths, what should you do?

I wouldn't let my kids drop out of high school, but I'm not well enough educated on alternatives to attendance to get that credential.
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