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Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

jacquesmattheij.com

151–160 of 175 posts

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#151
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company doing business in Bangladesh has a fixed amount of money they can spend on compensation + safety + etc. In a competitive industry like garment manufacturing, the margins are already very thin, so increasing safety will result in reduced worker pay (or shutting down and workers becoming unemployed). There is no free lunch. The most we can do is force workers to trade pay for safety, which they might not want…

"The most we can do is force workers to trade pay for safety, which they might not want to do." This is a weird way to frame things, as though workers don't really mind being killed or injured on the job. Safety is management's responsibility, not an employee choice.

>as though workers don't really mind being killed or injured on the job.

It's a matter of probabilities, not certainty. And workers quite often DO prefer to trade off safety against other concerns. Not just pay, either. Convenience is a big one. When I worked at a factory in China, I was told the people using heavy machinery had safety goggles available but often preferred not to wear their googles, because doing so was hot and uncomfortable. Management would nag people to do so but wouldn't require it. In that sort of circumstance, giving workers objectively more freedom and personal responsibility allows them to be less safe - but more comfortable! - compared to how they would be in the US with OSHA breathing down people's necks.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If prices go up sufficiently then there is no advantage to building a factory in Bangladesh. Bangladeshi workers then become unemployed. Right now, Bangladesh needs wealth more than anything else. Once they have wealth, they can spend it on things like OSHA.

Or, you know, those countries could have factories that satisfy their markets, and we could have factories that satisfy ours. All without having to kill people in the process or burning dirty fuels shipping goods halfway around the world.

If they're only satisfying local (poorer) markets, then they have even less money to worry about things like safety.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#153
post #115
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're in Bangladesh and in a well of part of the city, you say. A family of 6 with 2 maids and 2 drivers too. Your entire post reminds me of something else I read : http://newint.org/features/2013/01/01/india-elite-sense-of-e... While the countries are all different (I'm from Sri Lanka originally), the attitudes are astoundingly similar. It's the Western equivalent of let them eat cake since they're used to eating g…

> It's the Western equivalent of let them eat cake since they're used to eating grass. Underpaid labor is better than no pay is an excuse of the privileged; and only the privileged. ...and only an excuse.

It's an excuse if the factory workers are underpaid. In terms of local buying power, how much more should they be paid in your opinion?

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#154
post #80
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're in Bangladesh and in a well of part of the city, you say. A family of 6 with 2 maids and 2 drivers too. Your entire post reminds me of something else I read : http://newint.org/features/2013/01/01/india-elite-sense-of-e... While the countries are all different (I'm from Sri Lanka originally), the attitudes are astoundingly similar. It's the Western equivalent of let them eat cake since they're used to eating g…

I find myself falling into this sometimes. I came from a relatively poor area and family (at least by US standards), and sometimes foolishly get the attitude briefly when confronted with poverty of "I got out of that, they should be able too. They're just lazy and/or are happy living that way . Which may be true, but I doubt it. I certainly never was.

So why did you get out and they didn't? Was it luck?

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a lot of similar restrictions in US workplaces, mostly driven by unions. They are equally as ridiculous.

What kind of restrictions?

A simple example is when the presence of an overprotected electrical union makes it so nobody else is allowed to plug and unplug standard 120v cables. Better file a $150 ticket to get that coffee maker plugged in.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#156
post #151
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The most we can do is force workers to trade pay for safety, which they might not want to do." This is a weird way to frame things, as though workers don't really mind being killed or injured on the job. Safety is management's responsibility, not an employee choice.

>as though workers don't really mind being killed or injured on the job. It's a matter of probabilities, not certainty. And workers quite often DO prefer to trade off safety against other concerns. Not just pay, either. Convenience is a big one. When I worked at a factory in China, I was told the people using heavy machinery had safety goggles available but often preferred not to wear their googles, because doing so…

Yeah that's why OSHA puts responsibility on business owners instead of employees. People have cognitive biases that cause them to make all kinds of terrible decisions about safety, which is why leaving safety to "personal responsibility" is a horrifying idea with serious negative consequences. OSHA might be frustrating at times, but it didn't appear in a vacuum.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hacker News certainly seems to lean toward the Libertarian-right. Some of the comments I read regarding regulation (or abolishment of it) is frightening. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5647898

Hacker News certainly seems to lean toward the Libertarian-right. That's funny, I feel like HN drifts further and further to the (American style) Left with every passing month. It's like a flood of refugees from /r/politics have stormed into the place and set up shop. I sometimes feel like I'm the only Libertarian left standing. Probably many of the others have just been browbeaten so much lately that they are commen…

What if we just canned the politics so that people don't feel the need to defend a point of view for approximately the 13873878972616th time on the internet, in full knowledge that no one is going to change their mind? That means flagging articles like this.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"However, I think the OP being concerned about this is great, but you can't force change onto another culture nor should you" We can, however, stop buying products made in such dangerous factories, and make it clear why we are doing so. Why should we demand that factories in this country adhere to certain safety standards, then buy cheap goods from factories in other countries that do not adhere to the same standards…

We can, however, stop buying products made in such dangerous factories How do you know what factories are dangerous?

Regular inspections and certification.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#159
post #116
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A company doing business in Bangladesh has a fixed amount of money they can spend on compensation + safety + etc. That's not true, the safety expenses should be mandated and everyone's prices will increase accordingly. Prices are set according to costs and in the developed world, safety is a required cost. It could happen overnight if the big customers actually required it. Imagine if Walmart suspended billions of…

The problem with that is country borders. If China mandated safety then the factories just move to another country.

That's why I suggested the customers mandate safety. If Walmart/Nike/Apple/etc required safety it doesn't matter where the factories move.

Western nations could incentivize this by not assessing fines for firms caught producing their products in unsafe factories (I assume a couple billion dollar fine would be more impactful to Apple than a scathing NY Times article).

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#160
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The headline is a lie. Because you say so? > If you follow the link trail, you'll find that the workers were on a construction site for a municipal biogas facility. Thanks for pointing out the link. Link? Also, such a facility will be somewhere in the chain of production and it is a fairly good example of the way the typical workplace in China approaches safety: not. There are a few efforts underway to counteract t…

I know people that outsource to china and over the years the conditions have gotten much better because of the skills and IP trade. From talking to people in the industry your ideas seems feasible in theory but not in practice. I talked to people that have had their coffe businesses harmed because they were running "free trade" coffee since the 70s but now they are asked to pay for a license to allow them to put that…

> There is a cost to OH&S.

I know, but that does not make it optional.

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