Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is a "red brick"?
In common usage the term "red brick university" is at least a little bit disparaging . It tends to be used to emphasise that we are not talking about the entrenched, traditional universities of proven excellence - Oxford and Cambridge. So likening the term to "ivy league" is very confusing. Better to say "red brick university" (UK) = "not ivy league" (USA). Note that I don't buy into this judgmental attitude myself.
Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?
381–390 of 420 posts
Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?
#382 In [348]: %run salary.py "London" "graduate developer"
Job Title: Graduate Developer
Location: London
Salaries:
20000 - 794
40000 - 288
60000 - 85
80000 - 25
100000 - 19
Number of jobs: 1,211
Average salary: £30,057
In [349]: %run salary.py "London" "software developer"
Job Title: Software Developer
Location: London
Salaries:
30000 - 5762
50000 - 3303
70000 - 1298
90000 - 590
110000 - 345
Number of jobs: 11,298
Average salary: £46,018
In [350]: %run salary.py "London" "cobol developer"
Job Title: Cobol Developer
Location: London
Salaries:
50000 - 7
80000 - 4
260000 - 3
Number of jobs: 14
Average salary: £103,571
[0] https://gist.github.com/chris-taylor/5694151Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?
#383Earlier quoted context omitted.
So at 60k you can't find devs maybe that's not high enough. Try offering 100k, see how many applicants you get. If you can get lots of CV then you've found the market price. Remember, to attract people you'll also need to attract people who are in jobs already. For that you'll have to offer something better than what they have.
Yes, I understand this, although I don't see any difference in number of applicants when I mention the salary and when I don't (I usually don't). I'm not seeing many good people who would be ready to join if I paid them more (it happens occasionally and we usually find a compromise). My recruiters are telling me that increasing the offer wouldn't give me more applicants. However, if the harsh reality is that I must b…
Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?
#384Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then why all the hand-wringing about a "shortage" of engineering talent? Because the market cannot operate, it is suppressed by the class system.
I am not smart enough to understand what this comment is trying to say.
If you're smart enough to be an engineer, you're smart enough to realize the only way to win is not to play. So you either go into finance, or leave the UK, or grit your teeth and accept that in order to do the work you enjoy, you're going to be poor compared to someone who couldn't do your job in a month of Sundays, but has the "right" connections.
Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?
#385Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?
#386Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?
#387Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?
#388Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am not smart enough to understand what this comment is trying to say.
Simply that in a free market, the market would clear and sellers (talent) would reach an equilibrium with buyers (employers). That cannot happen because the buyers - for ingrained, cultural reasons of reinforcing a class hierarchy - refuse to play. So the most senior engineer in an organization, no matter how much value he creates, can never be paid more than a middle or in some cases junior manager incase he gets "i…
Is the UK class system still that bad? (I'd heard horror stories but assumed they were at least somewhat overblown).
Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?
#389It's hard to compare directly between SV and London because they're very different economically. SV is full of huge pure tech companies (the googles, apples, facebooks) that are hugely profitable and HAVE to spend heavily on R&D. Their product is literally technology and so they need 'high end' engineers. This therefore attracts 'high end' engineers from around the world, and the large number of these companies created a bidding war, hence wages rise.
The majority of developer jobs in London (and for that matter everywhere except SV) are at enterprises where they are slogging out backend code - think projects to integrate internal systems. Most of these roles aren't particularly 'high end' and don't need guru 99 percentile programmers, and hence they can pay less. Most of these companies see tech as a necessary evil and not a competitive advantage.
For these enterprise roles, base salary is also meaningless as nearly everyone contracts. A typical 'senior java dev' that pays £60k permanent, would contract for £500/day which is the equivalent of £115k [1]. Rates upto £700 are common, and £1000 isn't unheard-of for rare skills in vogue. Junior programmers should expect £350+
So comparing like-for-like skill set, London programmers are actually paid pretty well - There are many making the equivalent of $150k+ who wouldn't even pass a phone screen for Google. Now London has a few 'high end' roles that pay very well, the majority of which are in finance, with notable exceptions being the London engineering offices of big SV tech companies. Don't be mislead that all of finance is high paying, only the front office roles at the 'computationally intensive' desks are. There are also 'high end' but relatively low paying roles at game companies, F1 and GCHQ.
Another factor is the financial crisis, which has hit London severely. Since 2008 a huge number of jobs have gone, and wages have been essentially flat. If you include the fact the the GBP:USD rate went from $2.10 to under $1.4 at the lowest [2], UK wages actually declined 40% in USD equivalent. This is in stark contrast to SV which in the same period saw huge growth.
The funny thing is that almost the opposite was happening just a few years ago. I graduated in 2006, and London was in the middle of a huge boom. I was at Imperial College, and all the major firms would come to campus and have big flashy recruitment drives. There just weren't enough quality engineers and so starting packages for fresh graduates were literally twice what ANYONE else was paying. Also many of these roles were extremely interesting, working on real problems with cutting edge tech and brilliant people, and the firms had enough money to invest in training, extravagant grad programs etc. This has changed quite a bit now!
[1] http://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/ContractorFinancialPro...
Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?
#390Earlier quoted context omitted.
In Romania an entry level dev gets 30% more than the national average and that raises quickly. In 7-8 years he's able to earn 400%+ more than national average. And still be paid less than an entry level in UK. National average net income is about 400 euros
Is this anecdotal or do you have data? If real, it's nice seeing the beginnings of programming jobs crossing arbitrary political lines.
Regarding payments to juniors and interns, I know it from the market - I know some salaries of my colleagues. When I started in IT - in 2006, I started with about 230 euros net, which was also decent.
I am talking here about Cluj-Napoca (the second largest city in the country), not the capital, where salaries are better.
So, if you want to live in a place and earn 4-5 times the national average income while doing what you like (programming), come to Romania :))