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What is Happening in Istanbul?

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Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#151
post #131

So many questions... How does a NIMBY protest turn into Tiananmen Square? Does someone in government actually say, "They don't want malls? THEN GIVE THEM TANKS!!!" Why would a government that has "sold out to corporations" restrict the sale of lipstick and alcohol?

> Why would a government that has "sold out to corporations" restrict the sale of lipstick and alcohol? Governments are groups of people that are at least partially restrained by the wills and opinions of other, much larger groups of people. People are very complex. If you are expecting the government to have rules that it follows 100% of the time, you will be disappointed. A rule such as restricting lipstick sales i…

>A rule such as restricting lipstick sales is something that is mostly inconsequential that the government can still point to and say "See, we don't just blindly do what megacorps tell us to!"

What it really does is to keep the government in power by pandering to extremists. Rational and well-informed people don't respond well to the imposition of corporate oligarchy. If that's what you intend to do, you've lost the support of those people. Now you need the support of someone else. Religious extremists fit the bill nicely, because although hardly anyone will actually prefer corporate oligarchy, there are people who place more value on "conservative values" than they do on economics, so you ban some lipstick and you restrict abortions and those people support you no matter what else you do.

You see the same thing with the Republican party in the US.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#152
post #127
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I've been to both cities for two weeks and I didn't find any mall in NYC (I'm sure there must be some, I just didn't find them) while in Istanbul they are really everywhere, you cannot ignore them if not only because they are usually guarded by security people with riffles. Here's a list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shopping_malls_in_Istan... They are usually huge. I was very surprise because in my hom…

I don't have any trouble believing there are many malls in Istanbul. I do have some trouble believing you can reasonably answer whether they are too many by just checking on the internet. In fact, as you point out, it's possible to visit NYC and not notice how many there are. I also have some difficulty with the idea that people are heading out to the streets, risking life and limb, in multiple cities across Turkey j…

Well, this exact crisis has been on Reddit for a couple of days and I even saw it on BBC News's online front page last night. I can't tell you exactly why people are doing it but it certainly sounds like a demonstration against a shopping mall was the spark.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#153
Thanks for filling me in. I was walking down Market Street yesterday and about 100 people were protesting with signs. I couldn't understand what they were saying nor could I read their signs as most weren't in English.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#154

Loath as I am to cite Buzzfeed, but: the images of the people on the bridge are not from these protests. They are from the 2012 Istanbul Marathon. http://www.buzzfeed.com/hunterschwarz/one-of-the-most-popula...

Picture album from Reddit, shows more pictures from the bridge of people who definitely don't appear to be running a marathon. http://imgur.com/a/wOrZR#11

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#155
post #139

Via wiki's list of turkish newspapers ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_Turkey ): http://www.zaman.com.tr/ Democratic, Islamic, Liberal ENGLISH: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/ http://www.posta.com.tr/ Populism http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/anasayfa/ Nationalism, Kemalist, Centre-Right ENGLISH: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/ http://www.sabah.com.tr/ Liberal Conservatism, Center-Right http://www.s…

What is the significance of being Kemalist?

{I just shuffled wiki's labels around and claim no special knowledge of Turkey. I'd guess Kemalists, despite their nationalism, would generally identify more with secular and democratic protestors than with the Islamist government}

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#157
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the significance of being Kemalist?

{I just shuffled wiki's labels around and claim no special knowledge of Turkey. I'd guess Kemalists, despite their nationalism, would generally identify more with secular and democratic protestors than with the Islamist government}

That's roughly where I am, but that's why I asked.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#158
"These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no «hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its people’s will.

On top of all that, the government control over its people’s personal lives has become unbearable as of late. The state, under its conservative agenda passed many laws and regulations concerning abortion, cesarean birth, sale and use of alcohol and even the color of lipstick worn by the airline stewardesses."

It sounds as if the protestors, if the author is genuine, are protesting something I call "Singaporification." It's the fusion of authoritarian quasi-fascist rule with capitalism-- a kind of socially conservative, often (but not always) religious conservative, but economically neo-liberal state of affairs. On the surface it sometimes looks theocratic, but in reality it's more of a dictatorship of gentrification. Religious morality (or sometimes secularized versions thereof) is used as a facade to condemn any form of social deviancy and especially to mentally control the lower classes by manipulating their religious faiths.

(We see the latter in America with the "culture war," which is a way of distracting the largely-religious working classes while their future is sold out from under them.)

In conversations with fellow techies, it's disturbed me to what extent many seem to tacitly support this kind of thing. I've been in many conversations explicitly praising Singapore -- a country that permits death sentences for minor infractions -- as a viable model of the future.

The thing that makes Singaporification scary is that it works. The scariest dystopias are not hideous hellscapes where nobody would want to live, as those tend to self-destruct or at best persist in tiny enclaves and never catch on. Who would want to emulate North Korea? But seductive dystopias are dangerous because they can catch on. Who wouldn't want low crime, clean streets, and a wonderfully healthy economy? In that sense I find Singapore to be the scariest dystopia in the world today.

Historical precursors include Franco's Spain. Think of Singaporification as a gentler, less overtly violent form of Spanish fascism. But as we see if you openly challenge it, the gloves rapidly come off and your shiny clean utopia busts out the tanks, tear gas, and death penalty sentences.

Edit: on second thought, it also represents a fusion of liberal nanny-statism, conservative social authoritarianism, and neo-liberal economics. Government by and for the uptight, culturally xenophobic urban professional.

As Benjamin Franklin said: those who sacrifice liberty for security and prosperity deserve neither.

Worth watching: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066434/

"Buy, and be happy."

If action flicks are more your thing, this is a fun and a bit underrated riff on the same theme: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106697/

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#159
post #95
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Russia Today: "At least two people were killed in the demonstrations in Turkey, Amnesty International said on Sunday. Over 1,000 protestors were injured. Most of them were hurt near Taksim Square in Istanbul, the focal point of the recent protest." On the Amnesty International blog they wrote this (but it does not talk about any deaths): http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=20803

[deleted]

Agent orange is an herbicide.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hyperbole. I think most people can see through "at least one in every neighborhood" as an emotional response to what is happening.

Really? Downvotes for this comment? Curious as to why.

They probably interpret your use of "emotional" as "irrationally emotional".
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