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Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

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Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#281

Post by Anderkent »

tptacek wrote: post #275
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How employment markets work, and fairness, are not the same thing. It's not a misconception, it's a criticism. And of course in the real world, wages are not based on supply and demand. They're based on leverage and BATNA. Simply put, given two equal employees (hypothetically, if it were possible to measure this), it's not "fair" to give one $50k and one $300k. It's not about the prevailing wage, it's about the contr…

No, the argument you're making is irrational. You're a $100k/yr FTE dev. A VP above you makes $200k/yr. You believe that VP should be making $50k/yr. But your position isn't improved at all if they do. You're still making $100k/yr, and someone else is taking the $150k/yr premium. So you say, "no, I should get a share of that $150k/yr premium." Well, OK, why aren't you? What you're saying is that you're worth more tha…

> The flip side of this, if it helps make the point clearer: you're a $100k/yr dev. The VP at your company is already making $50k/yr. This is good how? By any logic you could employ in the above scenario, you're worth more than $100k/yr in this scenario too.

The difference is in one scenario you're talking about a company that can pay out 300k a year, and in the other it's only 150k. Fairness is not about absolute numbers, but relative numbers in proportion to the total available.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#282

Post by petercooper »

acangiano wrote: post #50
VexXtreme wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That tends to be the case mostly everywhere in Europe. For that matter, most places in the world outside the US (and Silicon Valley) tend not to pay software engineers very competitively. I am from a fairly small central European country and programmers there barely make more than other professions; the salaries often amount to the national average.

Remote-work-friendly companies can capitalize on that.

They sure do :) Can't name names but I know at least one of the biggest (and wealthiest) companies in the Rails apps scene pays its remote employees a fair wage by where those employees live, not by what would be acceptable in Chicago.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#283

Post by petercooper »

cityboy wrote: post #178
john_flintstone wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contract wages are considerably higher, especially in London. In some cases, twice as high. If you have a little fire in your belly, and don't mind living with some uncertainty and a lot of change in your life, contracting in London can be great -- financially and otherwise. Ex: City (finance) contract rates of £500-£700 per day are far from uncommon, if you have finance experience. Non finance, £400+ per day is not…

Direct contract rates are even higher, somtimes > 100% higher. The pimps (contracting agencies) really screw over contactors on London. My personal experience: went from £30/hr to £100/hr by bypassing the former pimp and contracting directly to a London oil company.

Yeah, markup of 100% on contracts is not uncommon in London.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#284

Post by petercooper »

pointyhats wrote: post #224
djhworld wrote: post #174

I'm on about £42k + a 12% bonus, not sure if I'm going to get one this year though. My colleagues who are mainly contractors keep saying I should leave and become a contractor but I'm not sure about the uncertainty.

You need a big stock of cash, a hard skin and a good accountant. The uncertainty is a problem, particularly when you end up getting booted early (it does happen), but occasionally you get to sit on your arse for the last 3 months of a say a 6 month fixed term contract being paid to play solitaire because they can't get rid of you early. The agents are all asshats and will screw you for a penny if you're not careful.…

The hiring companies treat you like a disposable tool. Don't expect to make any friends at the companies - the permanent staff know you're making more than they are.

This is a key reason I got out of consulting. At least, consulting on the same things that the full-time staff were working on (so training is good because it's obviously temporary in nature and no-one in-house does it). The money might be good but there's more to life than that.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#286

Post by infinity0 »

tptacek wrote: post #275
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How employment markets work, and fairness, are not the same thing. It's not a misconception, it's a criticism. And of course in the real world, wages are not based on supply and demand. They're based on leverage and BATNA. Simply put, given two equal employees (hypothetically, if it were possible to measure this), it's not "fair" to give one $50k and one $300k. It's not about the prevailing wage, it's about the contr…

No, the argument you're making is irrational. You're a $100k/yr FTE dev. A VP above you makes $200k/yr. You believe that VP should be making $50k/yr. But your position isn't improved at all if they do. You're still making $100k/yr, and someone else is taking the $150k/yr premium. So you say, "no, I should get a share of that $150k/yr premium." Well, OK, why aren't you? What you're saying is that you're worth more tha…

This is the most anti-rational anti-worker worthless "explanation" I have ever heard.

What other people make is definitely not an orthogonal concern, and is hugely relevant. Your justification of not caring about other people earning more is incredibly short-sighted. Yes, it does improve my position if other people earn less, because that money is then available for the company to use on other things, such as paying me.

Furthermore, to suggest that this is "irrational" is offensive and irrational in itself, and would not be inconsistent with psychological propaganda.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#287

Post by billforsternz »

vineel wrote: post #114
gaius wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the legacy of the old class system rearing its ugly head. No matter how well educated, and from what prestigious colleges, (software) engineering is blue-collar work and will never be as well paid as the "graduate management fast-track" type with a sociology degree from a "red brick". Finance isn't highly paid for software work, it's fairly paid, by world standards, only because they contrary to popular belief,…

What is a "red brick"?

In common usage the term "red brick university" is at least a little bit disparaging . It tends to be used to emphasise that we are not talking about the entrenched, traditional universities of proven excellence - Oxford and Cambridge. So likening the term to "ivy league" is very confusing. Better to say "red brick university" (UK) = "not ivy league" (USA). Note that I don't buy into this judgmental attitude myself.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#288

Post by drakeandrews »

alt_f4 wrote: post #197
benjaminwootton wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

£116 a month for unlimited travel around the city really pales into insignificance against even the average IT salary. In many towns and cities outside of London you would need a car to get to work which would cost much more, even without the London uplift in salary.

It's not unlimited - just zones 1-2 and the tube shuts down around 12 making it a pain to come back home after a night out.

You also get unlimited bus travel through all of London and if you're on a travel card, you can safely travel overground to any station without exit gates without fear of paying extension charges.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#289

Post by drakeandrews »

elemeno wrote: post #249
stickydink wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The City" is a small area of London, in terms of business, the US equivalent of a financial district. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London

It's the UK term for Wall Street. It doesn't have as much of the geographic connotation these days - working in Canary Wharf or a Mayfair hedge fund can all come under the phrase of 'working the in the city'

The city is certainly a geographic area. It's the City of London, an entirely separate city with it's own government and everything.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#290

Post by tptacek »

infinity0 wrote: post #286
tptacek wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the argument you're making is irrational. You're a $100k/yr FTE dev. A VP above you makes $200k/yr. You believe that VP should be making $50k/yr. But your position isn't improved at all if they do. You're still making $100k/yr, and someone else is taking the $150k/yr premium. So you say, "no, I should get a share of that $150k/yr premium." Well, OK, why aren't you? What you're saying is that you're worth more tha…

This is the most anti-rational anti-worker worthless "explanation" I have ever heard. What other people make is definitely not an orthogonal concern, and is hugely relevant. Your justification of not caring about other people earning more is incredibly short-sighted. Yes, it does improve my position if other people earn less, because that money is then available for the company to use on other things, such as paying…

How are you better off if an overpaid VP is laid off and replaced with a cheaper VC? Try to be specific.

The word "irrational" doesn't mean "idiotic", by the way.

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