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The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

businessinsider.com

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Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#81
post #51
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source? I'm questioning it simply because I remember from browsing US News stats during my grad school applications that pretty much every graduate department in STEM fields was 20-50% foreign students. I only looked at the top 20-30 schools, but that's a pretty substantial cohort. Maybe there are sweatshops out there that hire middling-low candidates at below market wages, but it's hard to dismiss the presence of a…

Being in graduate school has nothing to do with being the best in the field. Very few American-educated STEM majors (or, at least in CS) go on to grad school since they can easily get the same job with a BSc as a foreign student with a MS. Getting a masters can help fast-track you in the visa process and make your resume more attractive for employers who are largely ignorant about Indian/Chinese/etc education systems…

It's not a necessary or sufficient condition, but it's a good signal that you're at least above average if you're at a top 30 grad program. I'd say the majority (but not all) of those foreign students would at least escape the 'low-middling' categorization.

P.S. We may be coming from different perspectives since I'm a mechanical engineer. A grad degree does make a significant difference there. Also, I was talking about both MS and PhD students.

P.P.S. I may have gone overboard in saying 'best' in the field. I merely meant good.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#82

I have a problem with "If supply of workers is short of demand, price should go up". In a very basic view this makes sense. But not in even slightly more sophisticated models. A company makes a certain "marginal" revenue off the employee. It's not always easy or even possible to compute the exact amount, but the salary is limited by this marginal revenue. The difference between marginal revenue and salary is the marg…

If labor is too scarce for capital to successfully exploit the hell out of it, that mostly means capital should just give up and shut down, handing control over the means of production to labor.

But first, how about we let capital usurp the political system for its own ends? That seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#83
Where in this article is it acknowledged that the mechanics of supply and demand are radically impacted during a recession?

Where in this article is the rate of employment and remuneration of STEM workers compared to the mean employment rate and remuneration of all American works?

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's true that the bulk of H1B are bodies for Indian body shops it's not a problem with H1B, it's the problem with the corrupt government issuing visas to body shops. And it's true that H1B's are not the best engineers in the world. However many of the best engineers in the world are H1Bs.

It's true based on what data, exactly?

H1b distribution is public record.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#85
The EPI study keeps misleading people. Key points to remember:

(1) The EPI is a unionized-labor think tank with strong anti-immigration views. Its research – its selection of figures and spin – will always be in service of that goal.

(2) This latest EPI report, like a similar one before it, uses industry-wide and degree-wide averages with no adjustment for cohorts of experience/age. It is thus possible for the 'average' to go down if there is an in-rush of new younger workers (or equivalently, less-experienced career-changers at starting salaries).

As a simple contrived example, assume an 'industry' starting with two workers, a entry-level worker at $50K a year, a senior worker at $100K a year. The average is $75K.

A year passes. Business is booming and there's a shortage of well-qualified workers. The senior worker gets a raise to $125K. The now-junior worker gets a raise to $62.5K. The company would like to hire more senior stars, but they're all already doing well in other industries (or other countries and deterred from working domestically by immigration barriers). Still, the sector is growing so they hire two new promising entry-level workers at $50K each, one recent graduate and one career-switcher, who were both making just $40K last year in non-STEM work. Maybe one of them will be a domain-specific star, with salary to match, once trained-up in a year or so.

Every single person in this scenario got a 25% year-over-year raise... but the 'industry average' compensation dropped from $75K to $71.9K, split over a larger and earlier-in-career base.

If you live in the simpleminded, interchangeable-STEM-laborer world of the EPI analysis, this is a crisis. There are plenty of "STEM workers" because every "STEM worker" is just like every other "STEM worker" and the new entrants haven't magically started making the old $75K average simply by putting on a STEM-worker-jumpsuit. But really, everyone's doing better, the industry is talent-constrained and responding with both salary increases and legally-allowed hiring, and would be able to expand more if other truly 'senior' industry-skilled people were available.

(3) The EPI report uses wordcrafting like "[f]or every two students that U.S. colleges graduate with STEM degrees, only one is hired into a STEM job" to create the impression many STEM graduates are left without a desired job. But there's plenty of evidence (including in their own report) that STEM-graduate unemployment remains low, and lots of workers happily go into non-STEM jobs with STEM degrees, or into STEM jobs with non-STEM degrees. (In particular, many STEM graduates prefer the pay and challenges of other fields – law, finance, consulting, even many sales and small-business roles – and may have taken their STEM degree simply out of intellectual interest, not as strict occupational training.)

So the healthy churn of matching of people with jobs where they, individually, thrive gets spun by EPI as implying we have more STEM graduates as we need. They seem to think of a STEM degree as if it were chiefly a 'union card' giving you the right to work in some rationed job role... and if not everyone with these cards takes those jobs, too many cards were issued. Cut back on the STEM worker supply, from schools and immigration, pronto!

That's the kind of fixed-pie, world-oblivious analysis that did wonders for the big-three US auto industry... don't let the EPI port that thinking into the high-tech world.

We need as many smart, trained workers - from schools and career-changers, foreign and domestic – as we can get.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#86
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Raise wages, and the talent will come. I'm astonished by this attitude. I hate buzzwords like "human capital", but it should be obvious that it's incredibly time consuming and resource intensive to produce people who can program in mainstream languages and platforms. This is not simply an issue of mining more coal or growing more corn.

All business is ruled by the laws of economics. Supply and Demand determine prices. Silicon Valley is not exempt, nor ... and more to the point ... should it be.

> All business is ruled by the laws of economics.

No, this is exactly what's wrong with all of this analysis. Economics is a social science. That's one of the reasons why behavioral economics has attracted so many bright minds, because of the obvious shortcoming of classical economics. To think that people are simply going to chase higher salaries ignores everything that you should know about how real people make decisions about careers.

That's not to say that there are no examples of this, but it's obvious based on the numbers of people who self-describe as a "programmer" that this is not happening in sufficient numbers relative to the demand.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#87
post #61
post #37

This article is needlessly sensationalistic and the claim that there is a "shortage" of ultra-elite engineers illustrates a basic misunderstanding of math. But it does show us what a red herring the phrase "STEM" is. Let's not get bogged-down in STEM, or the differences between Engineering and Computer Science. There are massive differences both in the curriculum and quality of instruction even inside the field of CS…

Hey, I'm a CS grad who can write / has written a lot of C, C++, Java, C#, Python, and Javascript all pretty well (though I've been mostly using C++ / Python / JS so I'm rusty on the others) but I'm still job hunting after a year out of my BS mainly because I went to a small private school and I'm not the A talent this article talks about. If people needed bodies that can just write (or test, or comment, document) mai…

I'm bummed to hear you're still looking for a job, especially based on everything I'm hearing about the opportunities in New York. Are you willing to relocate, or are you specifically looking for a remote role.

In any case, I'm certainly not making the case that it's easy to get a job. Virtually every step in the process is broken, from education to vocational training to job placement to recruiting. I think it's fair to say that companies have really not figured out how to hire. The current solution reminds me of overengineering: you hire an 9, even though you only need a 6 because you know there's a +/- 3 margin of error.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, I'm not so much angry about being turned down as I am about the bureaucratic randomness and then being recruited by the same companies months later. Either I'm good enough to fill some job opening they have when they interview me, and they've got lots of job openings, or I'm not. Wasting weeks of my time when I could be saying "yes" to someone else (which is exactly what happened ) is a problem. There's…

At the risk of sounding like an old man patronizing a youngster, "welcome to the real world, kid." Unfortunately, getting hired is not as deterministic or fair as getting an A on an exam. It's certainly not as simple as "Either I'm good enough or I'm not." There is a random dice roll involved, for all kinds of messy real world reasons, and you've got to accept that and move on - do your best to rack up as many bonus…

Hey, mostly it's fine. I always come across as more angry than I actually am, because I'm just like that.

No, what I'd really like to let go of is getting emails from recruiters regularly from firms that definitely don't want me right now.

A company sent me a recruitment letter just last week, whose details I won't divulge. However, if they had looked at my resume or LinkedIn page (which is linked in my resume), they would have seen that I don't meet their listed requirements anyway. I haven't spent two full-time years in industry, and I certainly don't have two years' full-time engineering experience in the things listed under LIST OF SUBJECTS. I list myself as a graduate student on my profile and my recent (ie: Fall 2012 and later) resumes, and indicate no desire to drop out.

So the strikes against me are: my experience level, my being employed already as a graduate student, and the fact that they're not looking for interns. Three obvious strikes, from publicly-available information about my situation.

It ends up being like having cheerleaders flirt with me: flattering when I'm already safely paired-up but pathologically mismatched to who I actually am if I'm looking.

TLDR: Go ahead and patronize. I probably deserve it, and it flatters me to think of myself as a young, immature squirt at the age of 24.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#90
post #38

Of course if Silicon Valley CEOs were smart about immigration they wouldn't try jumping on the "comprehensive immigration reform" bandwagon. Or even pushing for an increase in the number of visas. Instead they should be pushing for a H1B salary floor in the 90k-100k range. This would allow them to claim the majority of the existing H1B pool, and it's hard to argue that jobs like "Food Service Manager" are jobs Americ…

This would never fly politically. "They want to give IMMIGRANTS six-figure jobs while Americans are unemployed???"
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