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The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

businessinsider.com

31–40 of 128 posts

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#31
post #29

There is no tech labor shortage. [ source : http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html ] If there was a labor shortage, wouldn't real U.S. wages have been going up? If I want a $5 Prime Rib Eye steak, and can't find it, is there a beef shortage? Raise wages, and the talent will come.

If I want a $1,000,000,000 unicorn, and can't find it, is it because I'm not paying enough? The fact that many SV companies want mythical beings to solve their engineering problems is an entirely different issue, but this does not invalidate their claims of a "shortage." It just means that they have failed to come up with a business that is capable of being worked on by the existing talent pool.

If you could take a horse and teach it to become a unicorn, then I'd say yes.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#32
Except that this isn't the truth. H1B imported engineers aren't the best in their field, working for top wages. They're middling-low, working for below-average wages. They pull down wages for the entire software engineering field by about 6%, say the studies.

If H1B's are really the best software engineers in the world, why are they being hired for less than the average wages in the U.S. for average engineers?

I appreciate that there's a persistent media myth that H1B is about getting "top" engineers, but this has been thoroughly, totally debunked and should be roundly mocked whenever it shows up.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#34
post #13

There's a big problem with the bar graph in the article. They are lumping Engineering Technology together with Engineering and Information sciences in with Computer Science. Engineering Technology is completely different from Engineering, just like CIS is completely different from Computer Science. Grouping those together is like grouping employment numbers for electrical engineers and electricians just because they…

I have an MIS degree and have had no trouble working alongside CS grads my entire career. Likewise for my family member with an Engineering Technology degree. I don't think there is that huge of a gap. It is still about getting your foot in the door and doing things on the job.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#35

I just always assumed this was the case, since everyone talks about wanting to hire only "A" engineers. But I'm not so sure we Americans should be "offended" by this. This article says: > The view from Silicon Valley is that a lot of the US talent, while bountiful in number, just doesn't stack up. But Silicon Valley doesn't want to just come out and say this, since it will sound offensive to a lot of American-born gr…

It's very definitely a pay issue. It's also a hiring issue: most of Silicon Valley deliberately makes it as difficult as possible to pass the hiring bar.

There is one company with whom I've interviewed once, gotten an offer, and then been rejected when I applied later in a separate round after a year and a half doing other things. There's another company where I interviewed once, got an offer, did something else, interviewed later, got rejected, was recommended for an internship later, got put through such a bureaucratic fuck-up that I didn't even receive a technical interview before they'd selected interns for all their slots for the year, and they still regularly try to recruit me every few months (including this past month), despite my being a grad-student right now. Then there's a third company that keeps continually sending recruiters my way every so often despite rejecting me with no reason given every single time.

I'm not naming names, but these are big, famous companies. Literally everyone on this entire board knows these companies and "knows" about their absolutely ravening hunger for engineers, "knows" about their six-figure offers for new college grads (I never got one of those, but I graduated in 2011).

If these are the recruiting, filtering, and hiring practices at three of the world's largest technology companies, then I have to declare, fuck it, there's no shortage of "talent", aka: skilled labor. There's a shortage of top-5% skilled labor willing to jump through the right hoops, with the right Luck Bonus stat on their character sheet to get through the outright random filters, who are willing to take the salaries on offer after all the crap they just went through to find a job.

By contrast, I'll tell you how I found my (No evil eye /spits!) internship for this summer. I checked the "Who's Hiring" thread on Hacker News for interesting internship positions, sent a bunch of cover letters, had one Skype interview with the CTO of a very nice company, received the initial offer, negotiated a bit (nothing too heavy, it's an internship after all, but a slightly nicer deal on tax status and travel expense), and accepted the offer. As far as I can tell (again, No evil eye /spits!), they're a very nice company doing highly interesting work that could even potentially inspire me towards new research directions in my grad work, and I'll be pretty glad to spend my summer vacation with them.

And at no point whatsoever did I have to recite the definition of a red-black tree, figure out how to jump out of a spinning blender when I've been miniaturized, or solve an Advanced Algorithms exam problem.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#36

I just always assumed this was the case, since everyone talks about wanting to hire only "A" engineers. But I'm not so sure we Americans should be "offended" by this. This article says: > The view from Silicon Valley is that a lot of the US talent, while bountiful in number, just doesn't stack up. But Silicon Valley doesn't want to just come out and say this, since it will sound offensive to a lot of American-born gr…

It's very definitely a pay issue. It's also a hiring issue: most of Silicon Valley deliberately makes it as difficult as possible to pass the hiring bar. There is one company with whom I've interviewed once, gotten an offer, and then been rejected when I applied later in a separate round after a year and a half doing other things. There's another company where I interviewed once, got an offer, did something else, int…

I understand your anger. But exiting a blender when minituarized is really necessary!

Honestly, if they do not TALK with you, it is probably a worthless job. And by talk I mean questions and answers are full duplez, like POSIX sockets.

Blender!

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#37
This article is needlessly sensationalistic and the claim that there is a "shortage" of ultra-elite engineers illustrates a basic misunderstanding of math. But it does show us what a red herring the phrase "STEM" is.

Let's not get bogged-down in STEM, or the differences between Engineering and Computer Science. There are massive differences both in the curriculum and quality of instruction even inside the field of CS.

I believe there is a massive shortage of people who are capable of programming in mainstream languages and platforms. The tool chains that have been developed to solve problems for online retail, advertising, travel, media, entertainment, etc are now in the process of being applied to virtually every other industry.

I think the failure of our industry (post-2000) to attract more people to this field is sad. I think the emphasis on ultra-elite SV talent ignores the broader application of programming to the world at large, and perpetuates an attitude that people who program are special, as opposed to simply being passionate practitioners of an increasingly creative trade.

Below are some interesting links I've picked up on this subject:

http://braythwayt.com/2013/04/29/calling-all-hackers.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/education/edlife/why-scien...

http://readwrite.com/2012/05/17/computer-programming-for-all...

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#38
Of course if Silicon Valley CEOs were smart about immigration they wouldn't try jumping on the "comprehensive immigration reform" bandwagon. Or even pushing for an increase in the number of visas.

Instead they should be pushing for a H1B salary floor in the 90k-100k range. This would allow them to claim the majority of the existing H1B pool, and it's hard to argue that jobs like "Food Service Manager" are jobs America vitally need foreign workers to fill.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#39
post #29

There is no tech labor shortage. [ source : http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html ] If there was a labor shortage, wouldn't real U.S. wages have been going up? If I want a $5 Prime Rib Eye steak, and can't find it, is there a beef shortage? Raise wages, and the talent will come.

If I want a $1,000,000,000 unicorn, and can't find it, is it because I'm not paying enough? The fact that many SV companies want mythical beings to solve their engineering problems is an entirely different issue, but this does not invalidate their claims of a "shortage." It just means that they have failed to come up with a business that is capable of being worked on by the existing talent pool.

If you want a unicorn at any price and your business simply cannot deal with the fact that unicorns don't exist, then you suck and you deserve to fail.

I don't mean you in specific, but this is the simple fact about unicorn hunting.

EDIT to note: this does not apply in the mythical "Lake Wobegone"-like areas people are sure to point out to me, where I've heard that a full third of the population are unicorns ;-).

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very definitely a pay issue. It's also a hiring issue: most of Silicon Valley deliberately makes it as difficult as possible to pass the hiring bar. There is one company with whom I've interviewed once, gotten an offer, and then been rejected when I applied later in a separate round after a year and a half doing other things. There's another company where I interviewed once, got an offer, did something else, int…

I understand your anger. But exiting a blender when minituarized is really necessary! Honestly, if they do not TALK with you, it is probably a worthless job. And by talk I mean questions and answers are full duplez, like POSIX sockets. Blender!

The thing is, I'm not so much angry about being turned down as I am about the bureaucratic randomness and then being recruited by the same companies months later. Either I'm good enough to fill some job opening they have when they interview me, and they've got lots of job openings, or I'm not. Wasting weeks of my time when I could be saying "yes" to someone else (which is exactly what happened) is a problem.

There's a saying: Killing your parents is insanity. Pleading to the court for mercy on grounds of being an orphan is chutzpah. We should call this the Dungeons and Dragons Job Interview: tune up your resume, practice all your best skills, compile them all down into a number (via computerized HR systems), and then use that number as your bonus on a D20 roll to see if you get through each stage of interviewing.

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