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Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

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Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#81

Post by rayiner »

mindcrime wrote: post #80
rayiner wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that the legal considerations here are a distraction. To the extent that a teacher undertakes to teach something, he should do it correctly. Remember the background context of this: there was notice and opt-out opportunities provided to parents in advance of the survey. The teacher then undertook to tell students that they had a right not to fill out the survey, not withstanding their exercise of the opt-ou…

The teacher then undertook to tell students that they had a right not to fill out the survey, not withstanding their exercise of the opt-out opportunity, as if it were a fact. It is a fact that they don't have to fill the survey out. Whether you want to use the 5th Amendment or something else as an argument to support that, is irrelevant. Bottom line, as a student, you absolutely have the right to wad the survey up,…

So teaching misinformation is okay so long as it plays in to your angsty feelings about authority?

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#82

Post by mindcrime »

rayiner wrote: post #81
mindcrime wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The teacher then undertook to tell students that they had a right not to fill out the survey, not withstanding their exercise of the opt-out opportunity, as if it were a fact. It is a fact that they don't have to fill the survey out. Whether you want to use the 5th Amendment or something else as an argument to support that, is irrelevant. Bottom line, as a student, you absolutely have the right to wad the survey up,…

So teaching misinformation is okay so long as it plays in to your angsty feelings about authority?

I'm sorry, what are you talking about?

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#83

Post by rayiner »

dpark wrote: post #75
rayiner wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that the legal considerations here are a distraction. To the extent that a teacher undertakes to teach something, he should do it correctly. Remember the background context of this: there was notice and opt-out opportunities provided to parents in advance of the survey. The teacher then undertook to tell students that they had a right not to fill out the survey, not withstanding their exercise of the opt-ou…

There was an opt-out notice sent via email to parents, at least several of whom claimed not to have received any such notice. The students were not given any opt-out opportunity. > The teacher then undertook to tell students that they had a right not to fill out the survey, not withstanding their exercise of the opt-out opportunity, as if it were a fact. It might come as a shock, but the students also have their own…

Students have rights, but it is well-settled that they do not have the same rights as adults. The Bill of Rights applies to schools, but cannot be applied wholesale to minors. There is an analysis where the rights are fitted in to the unique requirements of the school context. The only precedent I'm aware of in the context of the 5th amendment is J.D.B. v. North Carolina (2011), which found that a uniformed police officer who questioned a student on school grounds about a robbery should have given the student a Miranda warning. It's a huge leap from that to conclude that school administrators can't ask about drug use on a survey in a non-custodial setting.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#84

Post by rayiner »

mindcrime wrote: post #82
rayiner wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So teaching misinformation is okay so long as it plays in to your angsty feelings about authority?

I'm sorry, what are you talking about?

You implied it was okay for the teacher to talk out his ass about the 5th amendment because someone needs to tell kids to "spit in the face of authority."

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#85

Post by Nimi »

nsxwolf wrote: post #61
tokenadult wrote: post #34

I am on record in the earlier thread about this incident https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5777578 saying that the first news report sounded like John Dryden is an unusually thoughtful social studies teacher, and that he was just relating the general concepts that he is hired to teach his students to a real-world situation facing the students. Even after reading the follow-up report submitted to open this thread,…

I posted my observations from last night in the other thread. Overall what impressed me was two things: - Dryden's supporters came from everywhere on the political spectrum - Kids were really smart and really amped up about their rights Sadly, I was pretty sure Dryden's censure was a forgone conclusion while watching the administrators stare blankly across the room while people poured their hearts out.

Link for nsxwolf's observations (thanks for posting!):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5786439

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#86

Post by DanBC »

AnIrishDuck wrote: post #66
DanBC wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) Zero tolerance means that often police are involved much earlier than they need to be, and for minor things. This is a political area, and so care needs to be taken when reading the following stories. Here's a young child who took Lego toys to school, and who was threatened with suspension. Luckily the p…

Don't forget the seven-year-old kid that was handed a two-day suspension for "fashioning a pastry in the shape of a gun" http://www.loweringthebar.net/2013/03/update-ii-school-offer...

My two & a half year old child plays with cars. Sometimes he drives them along and crashes them into walls, with impressive "crash!!" noises.

I have no idea where he gets this from.

We know he is playing, and that he has no concept of what a real car crash is like, or that car crashes involve pain and suffering. We would never ever discipline him for this, and we'd be horrified if anyone else thought it deserved disciplinary action. (Hitting another child with a car while yelling "CRASH!" is different!)

I wonder if this is just guns and knives?

I grew up in a world with Action Man when he had real guns and tanks; and comics like Commando or 2000AD.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#87

Post by btilly »

bcariveau wrote: post #27

Regarding privacy concerns: http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/hottopics/ht10-28-02... In specific: Sec. 1061 Student Privacy, Parental Access to Information, and Administration of Certain Physical Examinations to Minors. The No Child Left Behind Act contains a major amendment to PPRA that gives parents more rights with regard to the surveying of minor students, the collection of information from students for ma…

Is there any chance that this survey was ED funded? If so then I'd like to see the school hit with the fact that the materials have not been made available for inspection by parents, and the fact that there are many parents who never gave written consent.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#88

Post by mindcrime »

rayiner wrote: post #84
mindcrime wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, what are you talking about?

You implied it was okay for the teacher to talk out his ass about the 5th amendment because someone needs to tell kids to "spit in the face of authority."

Fact: There is a 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination.

Fact: The kids have a right to not fill out the survey.

Debatable, but not a settled point either way: Whether or not the aforementioned 5th Amendment protection specifically applies in this situation.

As you can see from all the other discussion on this HN forum, whether or not the 5th Amendment comes into play here is subject to debate, and it's hardly an unreasonable position to take, to suggest that it does apply. Stating that is not even close to "disinformation" or "talking out of his ass".

It's also important to note that these kids weren't taking a class to prep for the bar exam, and you wouldn't expect the same level of precision regarding this topic, from this teacher, as you would from a class and a teacher focus on that topic specifically. To some extent, ALL middle-school teachers and high-school teachers, and some college professors, are "talking out their asses" when teaching about the Constitution, and history related to laws and legalities in this country... but we don't run around accusing them of spreading disinformation for teaching at the level of generalities.

So I am only implying that it's OK for the teacher to "talk out of his ass" to the extent that everybody talks out of their ass most of the time. So I guess I'd say you're being overly pedantic, IMO.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#89

Post by steamer25 »

To me the act of disciplining the teacher makes the very case they're alleging that he portrayed. I.e., "the administration around here is kinda jumpy and will crack down on the slightest appearance of infraction--even if the right course of action is unclear or controversial."

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#90

Post by sk5t »

rayiner wrote: post #51
nsxwolf wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dryden didn't have time to hire a constitutional lawyer and hash out all the nuances on how the 5th amendment does or doesn't apply. He believed it did. To me it's pretty clear that it should apply here. If we're all going to restrain ourselves from asserting what we think our rights are we might as well all give up.

The problem is Dryden's gut feeling gets the gist of the rule wrong. The gist is not: "you don't have to tell the government anything that might make you look bad." The gist is: "You can't be forced to testify at a witness against yourself in a criminal proceeding." The further away you get from that core scenario, the less likely the 5th amendment is going to apply. You're right, Dryden didn't have time to hire a co…

Suppose the government sent you a non-anonymous survey inquiring about your various activities, ostensibly for the purpose of shaping national health care policy, but not explicitly disclaiming the option of using the responses for other purposes? Do you believe the 5th would shield you from admitting to crimes in this case?
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