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Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

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Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#71

Post by yummyfajitas »

flyinRyan wrote: post #39
yummyfajitas wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something happened in the past 10-20 years where teachers became the scape goats of the failing American education system. The reason for this is simple deduction. If you believe teacher quality is the primary drivers of educational outcomes and outcomes are not as you desire, it must be caused by low teacher quality. (Personally I don't accept the premise that teacher quality affects educational outcomes much, but m…

Your views are likely outside the mainstream in the same way Alex Jones' views are outside the mainstream. Your "simple deduction" would better be labeled "uneducated guessing based on nothing". The reasons behind the dramatic decline in the American education system are obvious and known very well to any public school teacher: "No child left behind".

I'm confused - which part of my deduction is a guess?

I'll ignore your ad hominem attacks.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#72

Post by jstalin »

rayiner wrote: post #54
ctdonath wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it was intended to identify students who could use help "We're from the government and we're here to help you" coupled with "you have nothing to hide, right?" seems an unwise combination.

The skepticism is mostly inappropriate in the context of public education. It is the purpose of public school educators to help their kids, and that often requires disclosure of information that would not be required of an adult in the same situation.

That's incredibly naive.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#73

Post by betterunix »

flyinRyan wrote: post #39
yummyfajitas wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something happened in the past 10-20 years where teachers became the scape goats of the failing American education system. The reason for this is simple deduction. If you believe teacher quality is the primary drivers of educational outcomes and outcomes are not as you desire, it must be caused by low teacher quality. (Personally I don't accept the premise that teacher quality affects educational outcomes much, but m…

Your views are likely outside the mainstream in the same way Alex Jones' views are outside the mainstream. Your "simple deduction" would better be labeled "uneducated guessing based on nothing". The reasons behind the dramatic decline in the American education system are obvious and known very well to any public school teacher: "No child left behind".

Education was on the decline as far back as I can remember. In the 90s, New York City's public school system was embroiled in scandals -- overcrowding, converting bathrooms into classrooms, illiterate teaching assistants, illiterate high school graduates, etc. This was long before No Child Left Behind (and in fact, NCLB was meant to address the concerns people had about American education), and it was not unique to New York.

NCLB is a bad law, but it is not the cause of our education problems. Teachers like to point to it because it is an easy scapegoat and it allows them to evade all responsibility.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#74

Post by andyl »

Many/most of the comments here reflect a general mistrust towards the administration, questioning motives or competence.

I've been the parent of a troubled kid. In that time, I worked closely with our school administration, who could not have been more helpful and smart.

If I lived in that school district, I would welcome efforts to address drug/alcohol/emotional issues. Maybe the survey wasn't perfectly done. But I don't see evidence that anyone was actually harmed by it.

In my experience working with sensitive information, educators have generally done the right thing, for the right reasons.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#75

Post by dpark »

rayiner wrote: post #44
fmstephe wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern is not with the intention behind the survey. I believe that the intention was very good. My concern is the idea that a teacher reminding students that they are not under any obligation to complete the survey represents manipulation. Teachers are in a position of real power, there are a great many situations where are expected to do what their teacher tells them. It really is very important to be allowed to…

> I think that the legal considerations here are a distraction. To the extent that a teacher undertakes to teach something, he should do it correctly. Remember the background context of this: there was notice and opt-out opportunities provided to parents in advance of the survey. The teacher then undertook to tell students that they had a right not to fill out the survey, not withstanding their exercise of the opt-ou…

There was an opt-out notice sent via email to parents, at least several of whom claimed not to have received any such notice. The students were not given any opt-out opportunity.

> The teacher then undertook to tell students that they had a right not to fill out the survey, not withstanding their exercise of the opt-out opportunity, as if it were a fact.

It might come as a shock, but the students also have their own rights. Being a minor does not mean all of one's rights are subjugated to authority figures. Students do have 5th amendment rights.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#76

Post by pfortuny »

rayiner wrote: post #54
ctdonath wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it was intended to identify students who could use help "We're from the government and we're here to help you" coupled with "you have nothing to hide, right?" seems an unwise combination.

The skepticism is mostly inappropriate in the context of public education. It is the purpose of public school educators to help their kids, and that often requires disclosure of information that would not be required of an adult in the same situation.

Never has it been deemed necessary to educate a child by making him put into writing his misdemeanors. Ever.

If you want to educate a child or a minor, please please please talk to him personally. If you cannot do this, you are not going to educate him.

And never in your life ask him to write anything wrong about himself. Even less with his name on it. It is a useless exercise which can only have ill side-effects and help nobody.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#77

Post by jessaustin »

smutticus wrote: post #4
fmstephe wrote: post #3

I worry that sitting here and reading the articles which turn up in HN each day that I am getting a very particular impression about life in America. Between this and Kiera Wilmot I feel genuinely horrified. Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) or willfully (even if well intentioned) manipulated (my interpretation of this survey debacle)? Oth…

Something happened in the past 10-20 years where teachers became the scape goats of the failing American education system. It might be related to the attacks on their unions and the privitization of education. I'm not totally sure. But regardless of your opinions on education privitization teachers are not regarded with the same reverence in American society that they once were.

Perhaps we're supposed to revere them ("reverence", really, like for the Baby Jesus?), but I'm not so sure we ever did. The 19th- & early 20th-C fiction I read as a child that included teachers, seemed full of examples of "one-room schoolhouse" teachers who were routinely physically attacked by students and parents, widely derided by less-violent community members, and frequently paid late or not in full. (I'm sorry I don't have access to my childhood book collection at this time so I don't have any cites.)

I can see how respect would contribute to the goal of education at younger ages, but in high school the successful teacher will have more resources upon which to draw than just "reverence".

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#78

Post by ctdonath »

rayiner wrote: post #54
ctdonath wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it was intended to identify students who could use help "We're from the government and we're here to help you" coupled with "you have nothing to hide, right?" seems an unwise combination.

The skepticism is mostly inappropriate in the context of public education. It is the purpose of public school educators to help their kids, and that often requires disclosure of information that would not be required of an adult in the same situation.

No, the purpose of public school educators is to EDUCATE. Disclosure of such information is NOT required for the educational process. These attempts to improve the process by probing and influencing behavior outside the classroom grossly oversteps appropriate boundaries.

The information being demanded (and, where possible, anyone advocating not complying is being punished) is subject to naive, ignorant, bigoted, and biased interpretation by people not trained, hired, nor authorized (by parents) to interpret that information, yet those same people are empowered to act on their interpretations with severe consequences up to and including "reprogramming"[1], expulsion, and prosecution. Some of the information revealed seems persuasively permissible ("are you currently a user of illegal hard drugs?"), but many are subject to gross misinterpretation of answers ("have you ever consumed alcohol?" "yes", not explained as in fact a tiny amount a few times during Communion at church). The context is inappropriate and veiled, the answers viewed without parental permission, a permanent record is made, and "anything you say can be used against you in a court of law".

tl;dr - none of their business. Teach the subjects assigned; don't pry unless there is objective reason to do so. What my kid is doing outside the classroom is my problem.

[1] - someone taught my niece that "gun" is a "bad word". She won't fess up to who, and I have reason to believe it's her "educators". In a culture where owning & using them is common family recreation & survival, this crosses the line.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#79

Post by jessaustin »

rayiner wrote: post #44
fmstephe wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern is not with the intention behind the survey. I believe that the intention was very good. My concern is the idea that a teacher reminding students that they are not under any obligation to complete the survey represents manipulation. Teachers are in a position of real power, there are a great many situations where are expected to do what their teacher tells them. It really is very important to be allowed to…

> I think that the legal considerations here are a distraction. To the extent that a teacher undertakes to teach something, he should do it correctly. Remember the background context of this: there was notice and opt-out opportunities provided to parents in advance of the survey. The teacher then undertook to tell students that they had a right not to fill out the survey, not withstanding their exercise of the opt-ou…

Do you claim that the students did not have "a right not to fill out the survey"? If that is your claim, could you elaborate on this novel theory?

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#80

Post by mindcrime »

rayiner wrote: post #44
fmstephe wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern is not with the intention behind the survey. I believe that the intention was very good. My concern is the idea that a teacher reminding students that they are not under any obligation to complete the survey represents manipulation. Teachers are in a position of real power, there are a great many situations where are expected to do what their teacher tells them. It really is very important to be allowed to…

> I think that the legal considerations here are a distraction. To the extent that a teacher undertakes to teach something, he should do it correctly. Remember the background context of this: there was notice and opt-out opportunities provided to parents in advance of the survey. The teacher then undertook to tell students that they had a right not to fill out the survey, not withstanding their exercise of the opt-ou…

The teacher then undertook to tell students that they had a right not to fill out the survey, not withstanding their exercise of the opt-out opportunity, as if it were a fact.

It is a fact that they don't have to fill the survey out. Whether you want to use the 5th Amendment or something else as an argument to support that, is irrelevant. Bottom line, as a student, you absolutely have the right to wad the survey up, throw it in the trash and say "fuck this". Yes, you may get detention, or suspended from school, but no one has any authority to use force to compel you to fill out a frickin' survey.

What we need here, are more people who are willing to spit in the face of so-called "authority" and take back a little bit of their own power and sovereignty. Just because "they" told you to do something, does not mean you actually have to do it.

Edit: To elaborate more on this, per rayiner's comments, let me add this: I believe the bit about the teacher telling the kids they can skip the survey due to the 5th Amendment protection is approximately correct, given the context. That is, it's a potentially viable legal argument and certainly not something one can dismiss out of hand. Given that the class wasn't a law-school class, that level of approximation strikes me as totally reasonable.

The more interesting point, however, is that whether or not the 5A applies here is kind of irrelevant, since there's a bigger issue at stake. And that is what the 2nd paragraph above is getting at. Forget the Constitution, forget the Bill of Rights, forget the SCOTUS, etc.... none of those things grant us rights. Ultimately, we have the rights we are willing to demand, and willing and able to defend, and that's regardless of what some "authority" figure tries to sell us.

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