Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

dailyherald.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 98 posts

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#61

Post by nsxwolf »

tokenadult wrote: post #34

I am on record in the earlier thread about this incident https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5777578 saying that the first news report sounded like John Dryden is an unusually thoughtful social studies teacher, and that he was just relating the general concepts that he is hired to teach his students to a real-world situation facing the students. Even after reading the follow-up report submitted to open this thread,…

I posted my observations from last night in the other thread. Overall what impressed me was two things:

- Dryden's supporters came from everywhere on the political spectrum

- Kids were really smart and really amped up about their rights

Sadly, I was pretty sure Dryden's censure was a forgone conclusion while watching the administrators stare blankly across the room while people poured their hearts out.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#62

Post by pdonis »

rayiner wrote: post #51
nsxwolf wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dryden didn't have time to hire a constitutional lawyer and hash out all the nuances on how the 5th amendment does or doesn't apply. He believed it did. To me it's pretty clear that it should apply here. If we're all going to restrain ourselves from asserting what we think our rights are we might as well all give up.

The problem is Dryden's gut feeling gets the gist of the rule wrong. The gist is not: "you don't have to tell the government anything that might make you look bad." The gist is: "You can't be forced to testify at a witness against yourself in a criminal proceeding." The further away you get from that core scenario, the less likely the 5th amendment is going to apply. You're right, Dryden didn't have time to hire a co…

There's more to it than just whether the teacher was right or wrong, though. Let's suppose that he was wrong, that there is no 5th Amendment issue (the school board gave some reasons why that would be true, which are described in the article). Even so, why reprimand the teacher? Why not just release a statement saying that the teacher was incorrect in saying that there is a 5th Amendment issue involved (giving the reasons why), and leave it at that? Then the teacher could discuss that with his class; was he right or wrong? The students could actually debate the question and learn something--they might even learn the lesson the teacher was really trying to teach, which is, never take any authority's word without question--always consider the possibility that they might be wrong.

Instead, the school board is teaching the students a very different lesson: that our society is run, not by reasoned debate, but by arbitrary exercises of power.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#63

Post by JasonFruit »

rayiner wrote: post #54
ctdonath wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it was intended to identify students who could use help "We're from the government and we're here to help you" coupled with "you have nothing to hide, right?" seems an unwise combination.

The skepticism is mostly inappropriate in the context of public education. It is the purpose of public school educators to help their kids, and that often requires disclosure of information that would not be required of an adult in the same situation.

I don't think there's anything about education that requires the sort of information they were requesting. I think it's a perfect occasion for skepticism. In fact, I think public anything is a good occasion for skepticism.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#64

Post by fmstephe »

talmand wrote: post #42
fmstephe wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern is not with the intention behind the survey. I believe that the intention was very good. My concern is the idea that a teacher reminding students that they are not under any obligation to complete the survey represents manipulation. Teachers are in a position of real power, there are a great many situations where are expected to do what their teacher tells them. It really is very important to be allowed to…

I'm failing to understand, are you saying the survey was manipulation or the teacher reminding the students of their fifth amendment rights? How would debates about the US Constitution and its laws make you worried about the US? These are likely the same discussions and debates that many people from many different countries have over their local issues and/or laws. How is the US any different?

I may have chosen the wrong word with 'manipulation'. I think that the school administration is unhappy that the students were told they could reasonably choose not to fill in the survey. What makes me feel uneasy here, and why I used the word manipulation, was that this choice _was_ available to the students but the school felt that informing them of this fact was inappropriate. This, in my mind, amounts to manipulation or at least a form of exploitation of the fact that most young students feel they are obliged to do as they are told.

Now, in this case the survey wasn't very sinister in itself. But the reaction of the school, to a teacher telling students that they could choose not to take this survey, is.

With respect to your second question. I think that in this case there is a fundamental question of how we expect people to treat the children who are in their care. I think that a debate around the complex legal aspects of this case tend to distract from this real central concern. Whether constitutional law was applied correctly here would not change for me one way or the other whether I felt comfortable with the school treating my children this way.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#65

Post by ynniv »

rayiner wrote: post #54
ctdonath wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it was intended to identify students who could use help "We're from the government and we're here to help you" coupled with "you have nothing to hide, right?" seems an unwise combination.

The skepticism is mostly inappropriate in the context of public education. It is the purpose of public school educators to help their kids, and that often requires disclosure of information that would not be required of an adult in the same situation.

Really? Data that you don't control has effectively become a permanent record. On the one hand we say that any information on kids is private, and on the other it's being handed to third parties, and we all know that you can never really take that back. Sharing information about your crimes or abuses with the State or corporations is something that you will certainly regret in a couple of decades.

[ http://nycpublicschoolparents.blogspot.com/2013/03/inblooms-... ]

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#66

Post by AnIrishDuck »

DanBC wrote: post #58
fmstephe wrote: post #3

I worry that sitting here and reading the articles which turn up in HN each day that I am getting a very particular impression about life in America. Between this and Kiera Wilmot I feel genuinely horrified. Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) or willfully (even if well intentioned) manipulated (my interpretation of this survey debacle)? Oth…

> Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) Zero tolerance means that often police are involved much earlier than they need to be, and for minor things. This is a political area, and so care needs to be taken when reading the following stories. Here's a young child who took Lego toys to school, and who was threatened with suspension. Luckily the p…

Don't forget the seven-year-old kid that was handed a two-day suspension for "fashioning a pastry in the shape of a gun"

http://www.loweringthebar.net/2013/03/update-ii-school-offer...

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#67

Post by rayiner »

pdonis wrote: post #62
rayiner wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is Dryden's gut feeling gets the gist of the rule wrong. The gist is not: "you don't have to tell the government anything that might make you look bad." The gist is: "You can't be forced to testify at a witness against yourself in a criminal proceeding." The further away you get from that core scenario, the less likely the 5th amendment is going to apply. You're right, Dryden didn't have time to hire a co…

There's more to it than just whether the teacher was right or wrong, though. Let's suppose that he was wrong, that there is no 5th Amendment issue (the school board gave some reasons why that would be true, which are described in the article). Even so, why reprimand the teacher? Why not just release a statement saying that the teacher was incorrect in saying that there is a 5th Amendment issue involved (giving the re…

I don't disagree with your point or agree with the school board's actions. This story contains two things that drive me nuts: 1) teachers talking out of their ass; 2) school administrators being petty assholes.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#68

Post by crusso »

rayiner wrote: post #54
ctdonath wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it was intended to identify students who could use help "We're from the government and we're here to help you" coupled with "you have nothing to hide, right?" seems an unwise combination.

The skepticism is mostly inappropriate in the context of public education. It is the purpose of public school educators to help their kids, and that often requires disclosure of information that would not be required of an adult in the same situation.

It is the purpose of public school educators to help their kids

Well, that's what they say. Looking at the way that the public school systems are run -- the way they fight school choice, the way they fight merit systems, the way they resist all efforts to measure teacher competence, the way they fight firing criminally bad teachers -- it seems that the purpose of public school educators is to protect their jobs and power base.

It's no coincidence that the NEA is the largest union in the country.

Naturally, there are some great teachers out there... but if you're going to generalize, at least cover the most obvious purpose of those you're generalizing. As a whole, the public education system itself is a self-serving disaster.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#69

Post by jstalin »

tokenadult wrote: post #34

I am on record in the earlier thread about this incident https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5777578 saying that the first news report sounded like John Dryden is an unusually thoughtful social studies teacher, and that he was just relating the general concepts that he is hired to teach his students to a real-world situation facing the students. Even after reading the follow-up report submitted to open this thread,…

Fellow lawyer here. I'm not a criminal attorney, but I agree that the superintendent's word shouldn't be taken as the last word.

Although he might be strictly correct as it pertains to police not being able to prosecute based on the surveys alone, they certainly could subpoena the survey results if a student were to get in trouble in the future. A student's statement could be used against him for another related or even unrelated crime.

Imagine being on the stand and the prosecutor pulls out this sheet and says, "you just said you've never used any drugs before, but this survey you filled out says that you did. Are you lying now or were you lying then?"

It seems it would be admissible as non-hearsay because it's a statement of a party opponent under FRE 801.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#70

Post by nitrogen »

samolang wrote: post #19
unimpressive wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's basically random, depending on where you live. (Another thing that hasn't changed since Paul Graham was in high school.[0]) I think that the shitty things you see on places like HN are on an upward trend, but it's always been kind of bad. If you want to get an education into how long this sort of thing has been going on, try one of the reddit threads that pops up every so often with a title like "Did you ever ge…

That "77 years ago" guy says he's 25 years old in another post.

It looks like "77" was a typo for "7" (2013 - 7 == 2006).
Post reply on HN