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How does our language shape the way we think? (2009)

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Re: How does our language shape the way we think? (2009)

#21

Post by codeulike »

Edge.org presents things as 'conversations' but they are generally just essays, with no possibility for other edge members to leave comments. Thats not a conversation. There's no dialogue, nothing anyone says is challenged. None of these 'great minds' at Edge are actually presented talking to each other.

Consequently although Edge.org says its all about conversation and advancing knowledge, I suspect its really just about selling pop-science books.

It would be a much better site if it was a proper forum (for the 'great minds' that are members) and we could all watch the discussion, disagreements, flameouts and ragequits. Seriously.

Re: How does our language shape the way we think? (2009)

#22

Post by diego_moita »

As a speaker of 3 different languages (English, German and Portuguese/Spanish) I believe that although correct this is a wrong discussion. Yes, languages does influence the way we think, but overall culture does influence a million times more.

One example is the democratic debate in English speaking countries compared to the same debate in Portuguese/Spanish countries. I hear a lot of words that don't have a direct translation to a single word: entitlement, pork, accountability, delusion, bullying, patronage, solipsism, ... Because words similar to these don't exist in Spanish/Portuguese I feel that the democratic debate is sometimes so truncated and clunky.

Another example might be how any discussion in English is so strongly focused on providing empirical evidence for claims; even today Anglo-Saxon remains the culture of Sir Francis Bacon and the inductive method.

Re: How does our language shape the way we think? (2009)

#23

Post by amouat »

jeltz wrote: post #10

"For a long time, the idea that language might shape thought was considered at best untestable and more often simply wrong." I dislike sensationalism. The idea that this can be tested is as old as the modern controversy. There were studies on words for colors in the 1950s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity_and_the_c...

Isn't it one of the themes in "A Clockwork Orange", which was published in 1962? It's admittedly not a scientific text however...

Re: How does our language shape the way we think? (2009)

#24

Post by aadsam »

david927 wrote: post #8
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #4

And just when I'd finally flushed Sapir-Whorf out of my system...

From what I understand, the original Sapir-Whorf thesis (now the strong version) was (correctly) discredited because it was about language limiting and determining thought. The weak version, that it influences the way we think, is now widely accepted.

Widely accepted is stretching it. There are very few linguists who believe there's enough evidence to support the weak hypothesis.

Re: How does our language shape the way we think? (2009)

#25

Post by smackay »

diego_moita wrote: post #22

As a speaker of 3 different languages (English, German and Portuguese/Spanish) I believe that although correct this is a wrong discussion. Yes, languages does influence the way we think, but overall culture does influence a million times more. One example is the democratic debate in English speaking countries compared to the same debate in Portuguese/Spanish countries. I hear a lot of words that don't have a direct t…

An additional confounding factor is that a lot of the people who are currently in power in these countries grew up and started their careers under the former dictatorships. Indeed the previous systems of entitlement, bullying and patronage nicely describes the way the political parties work in these countries. It will probably need another two generations or so of democracy before the effects of the dictatorships wear off and the limitations or otherwise of the languages start to be visible.

Re: How does our language shape the way we think? (2009)

#26

Post by jeltz »

amouat wrote: post #23
jeltz wrote: post #10

"For a long time, the idea that language might shape thought was considered at best untestable and more often simply wrong." I dislike sensationalism. The idea that this can be tested is as old as the modern controversy. There were studies on words for colors in the 1950s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity_and_the_c...

Isn't it one of the themes in "A Clockwork Orange", which was published in 1962? It's admittedly not a scientific text however...

I have no read A Clockwork orange, but it is one of the main themes of Nineteen Eighty-Four which was published in 1949.

Re: How does our language shape the way we think? (2009)

#27

Post by rajeevk »

diego_moita wrote: post #22

As a speaker of 3 different languages (English, German and Portuguese/Spanish) I believe that although correct this is a wrong discussion. Yes, languages does influence the way we think, but overall culture does influence a million times more. One example is the democratic debate in English speaking countries compared to the same debate in Portuguese/Spanish countries. I hear a lot of words that don't have a direct t…

Completely agree. It is the culture that influences how we think, not the language. I speak English and Hindi. English is my second language and I never feel like speaking/thinking in English makes me different than I do in Hindi.

Attributes of many languages are highly influenced by the culture where it is spoken. For example, Japanese may have a word for some concept which English does not have. This is because that concept may not be important in the culture where English is spoken.

Re: How does our language shape the way we think? (2009)

#28

Post by adolfojp »

diego_moita wrote: post #22

As a speaker of 3 different languages (English, German and Portuguese/Spanish) I believe that although correct this is a wrong discussion. Yes, languages does influence the way we think, but overall culture does influence a million times more. One example is the democratic debate in English speaking countries compared to the same debate in Portuguese/Spanish countries. I hear a lot of words that don't have a direct t…

In Puerto Rican Spanish we have adopted some of those words and we do have translations for others. But this is due, in part, to our close relationship with the USA.

pork (pork barrel) = tocino (barril de tocino)

accountability = no direct translation but "responsabilidad" serves the same purpose and "acontabilidad" is slowly entering our lexicon.

bullying = no change. We just adopted the word.

patronage = padrinaje, apadrinaje

solipsism = solipsismo

Re: How does our language shape the way we think? (2009)

#29

Post by taejo »

7rurl wrote: post #16
franzwong wrote: post #13

Number system of some Asian languages (e.g. Chinese) is base 10, so the children can learn Maths easier.

What do you mean? The arabic number system that most of the world uses is base 10. Also, I don't see why the base of the number system would make math any easier or harder.

The arabic numeral system is base-10, but English numerals are only sort of base 10: consider 2, 10, 12 and 22. In English, these are spoken as "two", "ten", "twelve" and "twenty-two". The words "twelve" and "twenty" are both derived from "two", it's true, but in two different ways. "Teen" and "ten" are similar, but there's nothing about "twenty" that indicates a connection to "ten".

In Japanese (IIRC), 2, 10, 12, 22 is spoken "ni, ju, ju-ni, ni-ju-ni": "two, ten, two-tens, two-tens-and-two".

It's not that one base is better than another: the idea is that a single consistent base is better than inconsistency.

Re: How does our language shape the way we think? (2009)

#30

Post by scott_s »

taejo wrote: post #29
7rurl wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? The arabic number system that most of the world uses is base 10. Also, I don't see why the base of the number system would make math any easier or harder.

The arabic numeral system is base-10, but English numerals are only sort of base 10: consider 2, 10, 12 and 22. In English, these are spoken as "two", "ten", "twelve" and "twenty-two". The words "twelve" and "twenty" are both derived from "two", it's true, but in two different ways. "Teen" and "ten" are similar, but there's nothing about "twenty" that indicates a connection to "ten". In Japanese (IIRC), 2, 10, 12, 22…

Thank you. I had flirted with the thoughts before, but never really explicitly considered how odd the English words "eleven", "twelve" and then the "teens" are. Not only is "teen" not quite "ten", we also put it after the ones digit. That is, 19 is "nine-teen", but 91 is "ninety-one".
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