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Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

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Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#31
post #3

I worry that sitting here and reading the articles which turn up in HN each day that I am getting a very particular impression about life in America. Between this and Kiera Wilmot I feel genuinely horrified. Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) or willfully (even if well intentioned) manipulated (my interpretation of this survey debacle)? Oth…

This teacher is as middle America as it comes. I actually went to that school although I had a different teacher for history unfortunately. Some of this is a personality conflict as Mr. Dreyden was always a boat rocking kind of guy. Some of this is ineptitude by the school district. They weren't always the most organized bunch, and certainly not accustomed to the level of scrutiny they have now.

I don't think that the district was looking to harm to any student, but there is definitely a culture of paranoia in that particular town and within the schools. The town is located next to a small city that has had drug and gang problems in the past. As such, they've taken (often misguided) measures for years to try to prevent problems from creeping over the town line. This would be one such attempt.

The real root of many of Batavia and really all of America's internal issues are uneducated attitudes towards drugs and the drug trade. There is a huge black market going on all over the nation because of the drug laws and it fuels petty crime on up to organized crime. It brings about new 'Education' initiatives as well as a focus on school security that makes for untrusted environments. It also makes it quite easy to put children in jail for profit. All the while more and more parents call for more and more laws because they hear horror stories of loosing Junior to a drug habit. These problems will continue to pop up until we change the underlying problem.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#32

Regarding privacy concerns: http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/hottopics/ht10-28-02... In specific: Sec. 1061 Student Privacy, Parental Access to Information, and Administration of Certain Physical Examinations to Minors. The No Child Left Behind Act contains a major amendment to PPRA that gives parents more rights with regard to the surveying of minor students, the collection of information from students for ma…

I was speaking about consent forms with a physician friend of mine. We came to conclusion they are complete bullshit - you could always get them for whatever you want by just abusing the information asymmetry and framing the questions.

I doubt that there forms are much more than legal covering ass.

Depending on the place in the US by asking - don't you want to know if your kid is surrounded by gays/muslims/junkies/conservatives/random boogiemans/ in school - just sign here you probably could get them easily. So it is a weak protection at best.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#33
post #21
post #3

I worry that sitting here and reading the articles which turn up in HN each day that I am getting a very particular impression about life in America. Between this and Kiera Wilmot I feel genuinely horrified. Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) or willfully (even if well intentioned) manipulated (my interpretation of this survey debacle)? Oth…

I went through public school here, and never suffered through anything worse than the general pettiness that is endemic to teachers and school administrators. There are problems with the American school system, but these outliers are not those problems. Heck, I remember in high school there was a huge protest over attempts to introduce minimum dress standards (e.g. no wife beater shirts, no spaghetti straps) in which…

My concern is not with the intention behind the survey. I believe that the intention was very good. My concern is the idea that a teacher reminding students that they are not under any obligation to complete the survey represents manipulation. Teachers are in a position of real power, there are a great many situations where are expected to do what their teacher tells them. It really is very important to be allowed to remind students of those situations where they don't _have_ to obey.

I think that the legal considerations here are a distraction. I think (and I am assuming here) that the teachers actions were largely driven by his conscience. And the simple fact that arguments about this tend to circle around debates over the constitution, and other legalities, make me more worried about the United States than anything else.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#34
I am on record in the earlier thread about this incident

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5777578

saying that the first news report sounded like John Dryden is an unusually thoughtful social studies teacher, and that he was just relating the general concepts that he is hired to teach his students to a real-world situation facing the students. Even after reading the follow-up report submitted to open this thread, I'm not at all sure that Dryden was trying to undermine the survey process. Here's a key passage from the middle of the story submitted here:

"Dryden, a social studies teacher, told three of his classes that they had a Fifth Amendment right to not incriminate themselves when they took a social-emotional learning survey April 18. Some of the 34 questions asked students about their drug and alcohol use, as well as about their emotions. Their names were on the surveys, as it was intended to identify students who could use help, according to school district officials. Those whose answers raised red flags were called in to the school's student services workers, including social workers and counselors.

"Barshinger said there was no Fifth Amendment issue, for several reasons. Once students' names were on them, he said, they would have become student records and subject to student privacy laws. And students cannot incriminate themselves because, even if the district shared the information with police, police can't prosecute based on that, he said. They are only allowed to arrest students if they are harming other students, such as in a fight, or if the student is in possession of drugs or alcohol, Barshinger said.

"Board president Cathy Dremel, speaking on behalf of the board, said Dryden 'mischaracterized' the efforts of fellow teachers and administrators, some of who had worked on a committee for a year to find a survey instrument that would assess students' risky behavior.

"'The board will not support any employees giving students false impressions about those who come here every day' to work for their best interests, she said."

I am a lawyer by training. I don't actively practice law currently, but I stay alert to the law related to K-12 education, which was my motivation for studying law. In my experience, school district officials are often VERY BADLY advised on what the law is, and their default assumption is that they can do what they want, and hide what they are trying to do from parents who have the actual legal authority to guide their children's educations. I wouldn't take these kinds of statement from the district superintendent or from the school board president as the last word on what the legal consequences of the student survey might be.

I think another Hacker News participant said in the earlier thread that he lives in the district and would report on what he observed at the school board meeting about the survey. I'm not completely sure that this latest news story, which fills in more details that weren't reported in the first story, settles the issue of whether or not teacher Dryden's behavior was appropriate under the circumstances.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#35
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are extreme examples of normal stuff, and that have been normal since schools (not educational institutions) were invented. The idea for schools (with that name) came from Prussia (ie: Germany when they had a king), they noticed that their soldiers were not keen in defending their government, not patriotic, and fled from the battlefield upon hearing gunfire. Someone then invented the "Prussian Model" of educati…

Citation needed.

Citation needed.

I'm glad you asked.

Schooling and Society: The Politics of Education in Prussia and Bavaria 1750-1900 Karl Schleunes (Oxford: Berg, 1989). (ISBN 0-85496-267-0).

There are more good citations on the foundations of the current state-controlled school system where that citation came from.

http://learninfreedom.org/school_state.html

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#36
post #22
post #3

I worry that sitting here and reading the articles which turn up in HN each day that I am getting a very particular impression about life in America. Between this and Kiera Wilmot I feel genuinely horrified. Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) or willfully (even if well intentioned) manipulated (my interpretation of this survey debacle)? Oth…

Those are extreme examples of normal stuff, and that have been normal since schools (not educational institutions) were invented. The idea for schools (with that name) came from Prussia (ie: Germany when they had a king), they noticed that their soldiers were not keen in defending their government, not patriotic, and fled from the battlefield upon hearing gunfire. Someone then invented the "Prussian Model" of educati…

I have alternative theory - it is a bit wacky but bear with me - by giving basic literacy, proper grammar, math, history and reasoning skills we create a class of people that can enter the economy easily, can create a lot of value added and develop their full potential. By giving roughly the same start we could also do a lot to diminish the class separation.

Calling Prussia - Germany while they had a king is just wrong.

And the think with UN- it is helpless organization, kept that way, and forever will be. It is even more pathetic than League of Nations.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#37
post #3

I worry that sitting here and reading the articles which turn up in HN each day that I am getting a very particular impression about life in America. Between this and Kiera Wilmot I feel genuinely horrified. Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) or willfully (even if well intentioned) manipulated (my interpretation of this survey debacle)? Oth…

Something happened in the past 10-20 years where teachers became the scape goats of the failing American education system. It might be related to the attacks on their unions and the privitization of education. I'm not totally sure. But regardless of your opinions on education privitization teachers are not regarded with the same reverence in American society that they once were.

People generally respect professionals more when they have the choice of shopping for the professionals who fit their needs. You would respect plumbers less if every time you needed a pipe fixed, you were assigned a plumber by your "plumbing district" and the plumbing district received revenues from your taxes whether your pipes leak or not. Teachers should take advantage of the opportunity to be treated like real professionals by supporting education reforms that give learners (and the adult guardians of minor learners) more power to shop for providers of education.

(By the way, I can tell that I am a good bit older than you are by the short time frame of your comment. Commentary about government-operated oligopoly schools not being staffed by teachers who are able to do their best for the learners in their care goes back many more decades than you guess.)

Something that HAS changed about teaching, as an occupation, in the United States in my longer lifetime is that now women have many more employment opportunities besides schoolteaching. When a woman can become a medical doctor, a lawyer, or an engineer, she may decide to take her talents into other labor markets besides the labor market for staffing schools.

http://www.personal.kent.edu/~cupton/Senior%20Seminar/Papers...

Again, I think if schools were more client-responsive, because learners had more power to shop, that would change management practices of schools and allow schools to reward better the teachers who do the best work. A teacher who does a good job is worth her weight or his weight in gold.

http://hanushek.stanford.edu/publications/teacher-quality

But the incentives in the current system, in which most schools get the bulk of their revenues from taxes, results or not, don't set up incentives for schools to value teachers who do well as schools should.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#38
post #3

I worry that sitting here and reading the articles which turn up in HN each day that I am getting a very particular impression about life in America. Between this and Kiera Wilmot I feel genuinely horrified. Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) or willfully (even if well intentioned) manipulated (my interpretation of this survey debacle)? Oth…

Something happened in the past 10-20 years where teachers became the scape goats of the failing American education system. It might be related to the attacks on their unions and the privitization of education. I'm not totally sure. But regardless of your opinions on education privitization teachers are not regarded with the same reverence in American society that they once were.

It varies from district to district though. In most districts I would assume things move along just fine and has been that way for years. In some districts teachers resign in protest because of the constraints placed on them due to emphasis on standardized tests which forces them to alter their teaching plans to the detriment of the students. In other districts teachers go to jail for allowing students to cheat on standardized tests or skip the middle-man to do the cheating themselves.

Much like most things in life, sometimes teachers deserve the criticisms they receive and sometimes they don't.

Personally, I feel the most likely culprit is a combination of the government and education administrators.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something happened in the past 10-20 years where teachers became the scape goats of the failing American education system. It might be related to the attacks on their unions and the privitization of education. I'm not totally sure. But regardless of your opinions on education privitization teachers are not regarded with the same reverence in American society that they once were.

Something happened in the past 10-20 years where teachers became the scape goats of the failing American education system. The reason for this is simple deduction. If you believe teacher quality is the primary drivers of educational outcomes and outcomes are not as you desire, it must be caused by low teacher quality. (Personally I don't accept the premise that teacher quality affects educational outcomes much, but m…

Your views are likely outside the mainstream in the same way Alex Jones' views are outside the mainstream. Your "simple deduction" would better be labeled "uneducated guessing based on nothing".

The reasons behind the dramatic decline in the American education system are obvious and known very well to any public school teacher: "No child left behind".

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#40
post #3

I worry that sitting here and reading the articles which turn up in HN each day that I am getting a very particular impression about life in America. Between this and Kiera Wilmot I feel genuinely horrified. Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) or willfully (even if well intentioned) manipulated (my interpretation of this survey debacle)? Oth…

You are getting it wrong (disclosure - I do not live in the US). Everything you read in the news is outlier in a sort. With 30 million kids in tens of thousands of schools you are guaranteed to get a few cases of something "stupid and abusive from the administrators" daily. After all - a normal school day with no events hardly makes a headline. And with the power of the internet some local news get much more national…

>Everything you read in the news is outlier in a sort.

Indeed. Otherwise it wouldn't be news. Anything you see in the news is automatically not worth being afraid of. Your life will be ruined by something mundane, car accidents, cancer etc.

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