141–150 of 202 posts
He had two obligations, his moral obligations to his students and his obligation as a school system employee, which were in conflict. He choose his moral obligation to his students, but in doing so violated his obligation as a school system employee. The school system did not ask him to perform anything illegal or definitively immoral. It is therefore correct for the school system to punish him for this violation.
The teacher should be in hot water for teaching the 5th amendment incorrectly. From the text of the amendment: "No person shall be... compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..." The 5th amendment gives people the right to refuse to testify, as a witness , in a way that might incriminate oneself. Relatedly, it excludes self-incriminating statements in certain circumstances from evidence in crimi…
>The 5th amendment gives people the right to refuse to testify, as a witness, in a way that might incriminate oneself. I'm not American, but I'm pretty sure the fifth amendment applies to any and all self incriminating statements that can be used to support a criminal charge against you. This is the entire reason police advise you of these exact same rights at the moment of arrest. By your explanation, anything you s…
The core of the rule is narrower than that: http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fifth_amendment ("The Fifth Amendment protects criminal defendants from having to testify if they may incriminate themselves through the testimony.")
It has been broadened beyond that, ("In the landmark Miranda v. Arizona ruling, the United States Supreme Court extended the Fifth Amendment protections to encompass any situation outside of the courtroom that involves the curtailment of personal freedom"), but note that Miranda itself is inapplicable because the "custody" element is missing.
I can't find any case law on the subject, but there is an old law review article that discusses some of the issues: http://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=20....
Even within the framework of the article, which argues in favor of students having 5th amendment rights in general, it's hard to see how a survey aimed at gathering information for psychological evaluation would implicate the 5th amendment. The most likely answer seems to be that it's permissible so long as the student retains the right to invoke the 5th in any criminal action against him.
The teacher should be in hot water for teaching the 5th amendment incorrectly. From the text of the amendment: "No person shall be... compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..." The 5th amendment gives people the right to refuse to testify, as a witness , in a way that might incriminate oneself. Relatedly, it excludes self-incriminating statements in certain circumstances from evidence in crimi…
In Miranda vs. Arizona, the Supreme Court said that the admission of an elicited incriminating statement by a suspect not informed of these rights violates the Fifth and the Sixth Amendment right to counsel.
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Malice and incompetence are equally dangerous and harmful.
*are equally dangerous and have the potential to be as harmful as one another.
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> So you are required to tell your school officials everything you've ever done wrong? That's neither here nor there. I'm just saying I doubt it's the case that the 5th amendment prevents the school administration from making a student fill out that survey in the absence of any police involvement or review of the results.
Have you been to a school recently? The "resource officer" is present in any secondary school that can afford him. This personification of the fear and incompetence of the modern American educator is the reason that fistfights, smoking, possession of prescribed medicine, etc. now regularly result in children holding criminal records. The American public high school is quite explicitly an arm of the law enforcement-in…
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I think you are mistaken. When I was in public school, "zero tolerance" policies applied to what you do in school.
Could be. I couldn't find a report of a kid reporting their own transgression to the school, to see if admitting active drug or alcohol use is tantamount to possession on school property. The administrator may still be required to report the crime to the police, however.
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I really want to understand this "proprietary information" excuse the school is using to justify not releasing the survey. Certainly the kids can go home and tell their parents what they saw (and some have). The kids didn't sign an NDA, they saw it, so why can't we see it? This story is happening in my town. There is a public hearing tomorrow night and I plan on attending.
There is a public hearing tomorrow night and I plan on attending. That's awesome. This is what democracy looks like. I got hooked attending some townhalls on my pet topic. I've learned so much about politics, policy, etc. these last 8 years. #1 Show up. #2 Keep showing up. #3 Bring your friends. It's ridiculous how few people shape policy. The upside is adding a few more people to the debate can significantly shape o…
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The survey is compelling students, under color of legal authority, to confess to crimes. This confession can later be construed as "discoverable evidence" leading to actionable charges. The objection here is to "fishing expeditions" wherein evidence is gathered en masse under an innocent pretext, and later (whether planned or not) an authority could gain access to that information and use it against the coerced stude…
Your statement of the rule is both too broad ("the government is not allowed to demand evidence of criminal culpability") and yet insufficiently broad to capture the activity the school engaged in (a survey by the school administration designed to gather information about potential psychological issues).
Without seeing the questions (and associated privacy policy), it's impossible to say if there is a question which would form the basis of a prosecution (particularly if the policy was to report certain kinds of answers to the police, which it likely is).
Any question which gave indication of a crime they'd report to the police for investigation can't be compelled to be answered.
The teacher should be in hot water for teaching the 5th amendment incorrectly. From the text of the amendment: "No person shall be... compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..." The 5th amendment gives people the right to refuse to testify, as a witness , in a way that might incriminate oneself. Relatedly, it excludes self-incriminating statements in certain circumstances from evidence in crimi…
It is no longer necessary for criminal proceedings to be in progress; it is now sufficient that the testimony could give rise to criminal proceedings. See, for example, Lois Lerner, the IRS official who took the 5th Amendment at a Congressional (i.e., non-criminal) proceeding because the testimony given could have led to criminal proceedings.
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I really want to understand this "proprietary information" excuse the school is using to justify not releasing the survey. Certainly the kids can go home and tell their parents what they saw (and some have). The kids didn't sign an NDA, they saw it, so why can't we see it? This story is happening in my town. There is a public hearing tomorrow night and I plan on attending.
My guess is that the survey was bought from a private company on a contract that says it is that company's property and not to be shared. Therefore if the school released the form, they could be sued by said private company both for violating copyright and contract. (And the company would want that because they want to resell the survey to other schools.) Stupid, yes. But I think it is likely that the school has a re…