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Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

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Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#41

Post by btilly »

readme wrote: post #26
btilly wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is that the survey was bought from a private company on a contract that says it is that company's property and not to be shared. Therefore if the school released the form, they could be sued by said private company both for violating copyright and contract. (And the company would want that because they want to resell the survey to other schools.) Stupid, yes. But I think it is likely that the school has a re…

> Stupid, yes. But I think it is likely that the school has a real legal barrier to sharing the survey. It could be. It could also be that the people who dreamed up this survey saw that legal barrier as a convenience. You can administer an unfair and potentially useless, invasive, survey, to your students, AND you have a "reason" not to tell the media, too! Had I been a student at this school, I would have put my sur…

Never blame on malice what can be blamed on incompetence.

In this case my capacity for outrage is exhausted. I've been through too many permutations of this particular type of outrage that this is in line with my expectations.

And yes, if the survey is as described, the teacher should be commended. Not punished. But that's out of my hands, though if someone gives me someone to email, I will do so.

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#42

Post by [deleted] »

cdash wrote: post #37
Maxious wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which was the whole point the teacher was making - you have a right to not incriminate yourself (by giving a false answer or not answering), even when asked by authority figures (judges, police, teachers) to do so. A lot of people feel that they must fill in every value of every form "or else". While really, if you value your privacy you should ask if every value is really required.

You don't actually have the right to provide false answers in many situations and doing so could actually be a crime.

[deleted]

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#43

Post by rayiner »

The teacher should be in hot water for teaching the 5th amendment incorrectly. From the text of the amendment: "No person shall be... compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

The 5th amendment gives people the right to refuse to testify, as a witness, in a way that might incriminate oneself. Relatedly, it excludes self-incriminating statements in certain circumstances from evidence in criminal cases. While the 5th amendment has been interpreted to apply to many different proceedings (not just criminal cases, as in the text of the amendment), there must be some sort of proceeding of a disciplinary nature.

If the survey results were not shared with the police or intended to be used in a criminal case, it's quite likely not the case that the 5th amendment was implicated at all.

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#44

Post by rayiner »

dllthomas wrote: post #34
danso wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purported reason is because the survey was designed by a private company who claims the survey to be their intellectual property. Similarly, if a school screened a controversial film, a parent could not ask the school for a copy of said film, because the school doesn't own the intellectual rights to it. This is a microcosm of what happens when public institutions, whose records and dealings are considered to be p…

For a while, this included the text of some laws! My understanding is that got overturned, though (thank goodness).

It was not the text of some laws. It was engineering standards incorporated into certain building codes. The laws were like: "buildings shall follow ASME x.y.z" (to use a software analogy, it would be like requiring something to conform to POSIX, a standard the text of which is not freely published).

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#45

Post by grecy »

genwin wrote: post #10
grecy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Are the students told that beforehand? I think a shocking consequence is students will now feel unsafe telling the truth about troubling events (abuse, etc.)

> Are the students told that beforehand? That would defeat the purpose of the survey. I guess if there's a time for someone to learn the hard way when to keep private info private, high school is better than later.

> I guess if there's a time for someone to learn the hard way when to keep private info private, high school is better than later.

Does that include crimes against minors?

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#46

Post by darkarmani »

rayiner wrote: post #43

The teacher should be in hot water for teaching the 5th amendment incorrectly. From the text of the amendment: "No person shall be... compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..." The 5th amendment gives people the right to refuse to testify, as a witness , in a way that might incriminate oneself. Relatedly, it excludes self-incriminating statements in certain circumstances from evidence in crimi…

That's silly. If the 5th amendment isn't needed here then it is simply overkill. You still have the right to not incriminate oneself. They only way you are correct is if they offered a waiver of immunity for any confessed crimes. This is how they can compel you to speak in front of grand juries. For certain crimes, school officials are required to report them to the police.

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#47

Post by psc »

nsxwolf wrote: post #3
tokenadult wrote: post #2

"But John Dryden said he's not the point. He wants people to focus on the issue he raised: Whether school officials considered that students could incriminate themselves with their answers to the survey that included questions about drug and alcohol use." To me, that sounds like an unusually thoughtful social studies teacher. He is relating the general concepts that he is hired to teach his students to a real-world s…

I really want to understand this "proprietary information" excuse the school is using to justify not releasing the survey. Certainly the kids can go home and tell their parents what they saw (and some have). The kids didn't sign an NDA, they saw it, so why can't we see it? This story is happening in my town. There is a public hearing tomorrow night and I plan on attending.

I would try making a FOIA request for the survey—on the school district's website, there's a link for requests: http://www.bps101.net/node/936

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#48

Post by rayiner »

darkarmani wrote: post #46
rayiner wrote: post #43

The teacher should be in hot water for teaching the 5th amendment incorrectly. From the text of the amendment: "No person shall be... compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..." The 5th amendment gives people the right to refuse to testify, as a witness , in a way that might incriminate oneself. Relatedly, it excludes self-incriminating statements in certain circumstances from evidence in crimi…

That's silly. If the 5th amendment isn't needed here then it is simply overkill. You still have the right to not incriminate oneself. They only way you are correct is if they offered a waiver of immunity for any confessed crimes. This is how they can compel you to speak in front of grand juries. For certain crimes, school officials are required to report them to the police.

> You still have the right to not incriminate oneself.

No, you have the right not to testify information that would incriminate you in a proceeding. It's a narrower right than you're making it out to be.

Re: Teacher under fire for informing kids of their Fifth Amendment rights

#50

Post by pdonis »

rayiner wrote: post #43

The teacher should be in hot water for teaching the 5th amendment incorrectly. From the text of the amendment: "No person shall be... compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..." The 5th amendment gives people the right to refuse to testify, as a witness , in a way that might incriminate oneself. Relatedly, it excludes self-incriminating statements in certain circumstances from evidence in crimi…

there must be some sort of proceeding of a disciplinary nature.

Well, if a student tells school officials he's been breaking the law, that could trigger a "proceeding of a disciplinary nature", couldn't it? I believe there is case law on this sort of thing.

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