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Sucks to be an old engineer

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Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#111
post #62

This post is touching on two issues that are somewhat related but different: 1. Finding ANY job when you're 60 is hard; 2. Engineers (who are still engineers) at 40+ will often be passed over in favour of twentysomethings. Engineering is such a young industry that I'm not sure we've really faced (1) yet (since the number of people who started engineering in the 70s is but a drop in the ocean compared to the number in…

How well does "move into management at 40" scale? If anything I would have thought there would be more 40-60 year olds in the work force than 20-40 year olds (or at least a close number). So either some of them have to move into management of non technical staff or you end up with a very top heavy management structure. Tech companies seem to prefer a flatter management structure to avoid too much bureaucracy.

> How well does "move into management at 40" scale?

Not so well. Pyramidal company structures get narrower as you go up.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#112
I live in SV and am in my early 40s and can only comment on what I've seen firsthand or heard about secondhand. Based on that, I don't really see ageism. I work with people in their 20s, and I work with people in their 60s. It can be harder to find a new job at comparable pay as you get older, but it has a lot more to do with the following:

(1) Salary expectations. Somebody works at the same company for 20 years, gets an annual raise that's above the rate of inflation, and has an expectation that if they go someplace else, they're going to get as much or more money.

This might happen, but it's not guaranteed. I've worked at companies in other industries where it was common for people to work at those companies for 30+ years, then retire. These companies have different notions as far as annual raises and how generous the perqs and bonuses should be, because they expect people to be around for a long time.

Tech companies tend to be a lot more generous, because there are much higher turnover rates and they have to work harder to retain talent. The result is that after 10 or 20 years at a tech company, you may become accustomed to getting paid above your market value (I hope to have that problem someday :). This isn't always the case, but it does happen.

(2) Lack of relevant technical minutiae. Everybody loves to say things like, "it doesn't matter what you know, it's your capacity to learn!" Or, "my knowledge of abstract CS concepts means I can pick up the technical minutiae associated with a learning a new language/library/platform/etc. in no time!" All of these things are true to an extent, and you're not going to get very far without them. However, none of them have anything to do with actually accomplishing anything- they're all just modifiers to your ability to learn and adapt, prior to accomplishing anything.

Unfortunately, accomplishing anything requires technical minutiae. Some of it is more widely applicable stuff like programming in a particular language or using certain tools, but the stuff that makes you really really valuable to your current employer is more likely to be the niche that you carve out for yourself over the years. This means, knowledge of specific codebases, and domain-specific knowledge, some of which might be from other disciplines like math or finance or electrical engineering. When you go someplace new, your niche knowledge is either going to be invaluable (yay!) or meaningless (bummer :( ). Most of the time, it's the latter. So, again, this is a case where through no fault of their own, someone has ended up getting paid a lot of money for doing a great job, by acquiring lots of valuable skills that don't mean much outside of that company and position.

(3) Burnout. Sometimes people just get sick of spending so much time around computers after 20 or 30 years (or 5-10!). They lose their enthusiasm and aren't as motivated to keep up to date. If you're burned out on your profession, you will have a harder time finding new work, for any number of reasons. It's unfortunate but it happens to everyone at some point or another, maybe many times throughout their career. Some people find ways to renew their interest and get out of this mindset, some don't. Older people are more susceptible to this because they have more important things in their lives (like family).

TLDR: don't get frustrated, try to see things from a prospective employer's point of view in addition to your own POV, and keep your skills sharp and up to date. Don't coast. Stay curious and make sure you're still having fun doing what you do. If you're no longer curious or no longer enjoy it, see if you can come at it from a different angle and rejuvenate your interest. If not, you'd probably be happier taking a left turn in your career anyway, doing something completely different.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#113
post #92
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would happen if you didn't remember your gpa? It is shocking that they would ask something like that though.

GPA seems to be an American thing. I graduated Uni in 2007 (in Scotland) and I've never been asked mine.

No, it's a Google thing. No American company has ever asked for my GPA, but the Google HR person next door said that if I wanted to interview for a job at Google, HR would demand my GPA (from decades ago!) and would not grant an interview unless it was above some (secret) threshold. If their recruiters reached out to me, HR would still require the GPA, but she said that the interviewers might not care about it.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your upper management is playing with fire if the candidates were over forty (at least in the U.S. -- other countries probably vary). That's just as illegal as turning them down because they happened to be female or black.

I don't think he meant that upper management gave "advanced age" as the written reason for rejection.

That doesn't matter, any more than a "gentlemen's agreement" to not hire any black people matters. All it takes is a demonstrable history of rejecting older candidates.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#115
post #91
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true in most fields. In the officer ranks of the military, you're generally forced into retirement if you're passed up for promotion twice. In many government jobs, you're forced out if one of your former subordinates is promoted past you.

Only twice? I've never know the ins and outs of the military (and ex-PFC Wintergreen is the closest I'll probably ever know to people being demoted or missing promotion) however this seems incredibly harsh.

He said officers, not everyone

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#116
post #91
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true in most fields. In the officer ranks of the military, you're generally forced into retirement if you're passed up for promotion twice. In many government jobs, you're forced out if one of your former subordinates is promoted past you.

Only twice? I've never know the ins and outs of the military (and ex-PFC Wintergreen is the closest I'll probably ever know to people being demoted or missing promotion) however this seems incredibly harsh.

See the description of the promotion "zones." In practice its really just once because its rare to be promoted on the second chance. http://usmilitary.about.com/od/promotions/l/blofficerprom.ht....

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he meant that upper management gave "advanced age" as the written reason for rejection.

People never talk about age at work. They talk about "graduation date". If you work in recruiting, you have companies asking that question all the time, "What's his graduation date?" I wonder if there could be a boom, especially with the online options, in mid-40s programmers getting graduate degrees so as to jam the signals. That's what I'll do if I end up facing age discrimination, so long as I can solve the money…

'They talk about "graduation date".'

Good luck with that if someone files a suit.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#118
I see our age discrimination problem as the fundamental sign of us being a defeated tribe. Ageism is one of those horrible traits of management culture (i.e. if you have a younger boss, you're a loser) that we wouldn't face if we had kept our tribal integrity (because "bosses" would be coordinators and mentors, not hierarchical superiors, making age irrelevant.)

Good programmers aren't ageist. We look up to the gray-haired badasses. (Ok, old bad programmers are annoying, but so are young bad programmers.) Ageism is a managerland prejudice. What the fuck is that shit doing in our industry?

Most of us are intellectual whores: massively overqualified for the work we're assigned to do, but hired because it makes the boss feel important to be able to say things like, "I have four Ivy Leaguers working for me" even when the work could be done by one script-kiddie. Meanwhile, the work that could actually use our talents is hard to find, because our society is in such a depraved state that social media gets VC-megabucks but cancer research gets peanuts.

It's perverted. When you're young, it's hard as hell to get a good job but getting a job is easy. But that's exactly when you care about getting the good jobs that will build your career. When you're old and have actual use for the crappy jobs (you need to sustain an income) you can't get them; and if you were sidetracked by taking too many crappy jobs (and that's not hard to have happen) you're not qualified for the good ones either.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#119
post #91
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true in most fields. In the officer ranks of the military, you're generally forced into retirement if you're passed up for promotion twice. In many government jobs, you're forced out if one of your former subordinates is promoted past you.

Only twice? I've never know the ins and outs of the military (and ex-PFC Wintergreen is the closest I'll probably ever know to people being demoted or missing promotion) however this seems incredibly harsh.

[deleted]

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#120
post #58
post #44

I'm not buying it. I'm about to turn 50 - doing better work than ever and more in demand. The tools today are so good compared to 5-10 years ago. Now I have these awesome tools, and understand sales/marketing/management/finance. ps - could I get a job as a developer? probably not. but there are other (better) alternatives.

I turn 41 next month and have been a developer for the two decades that I have been in IT. A 50 year old up to date on the latest tools seems to be the rare exception. The rule at my current employer seems to be after hitting 50-55 that they really have their eye set on retirement. Learning a new skillset has such low dividends that they don't believe it is worthwhile. They show up to work right on time at 8 am, they…

The problem with such people is their managers. It's the same problem of remote work -- don't blame the slackers that only deliver a couple hours of real work per day; blame managers and team leads who are too incompetent to evaluate actual performance, then reward engineers that deliver and get rid of those that don't.
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