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Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

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Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#31

Post by mrtksn »

kenjackson wrote: post #17

I think people have the FBIs motivations misunderstood. And I don't mean in some evil conspiracy theory sort of way, but in one that is pretty consistent with their mission. Their main mission nowadays is to stop terrorism, etc... I I think that when they look at this rationally they believe are better served by being able to access these conversations. The article theorizes that people with data to hide will use enc…

There was an article about the IRS targeting legal organizations that are not exactly beloved ones by the government.

Sure, FBI are not evil or anything but even one abuse is too much. Government agencies are build to act according to the status quo.

What if the government is not perfect and there are people trying to change something but the government in power is opposing it. Ending the slavery, ending the Vietnam war, gay rights or any movement with an opposition in Washington could have been destroyed with the power that FBI is seeking. The recent decriminalization of drugs in some states could have been prevented if FBI had this power of intercepting all communications. People must have means to challenge the government with non-violent actions. Just because FBI may catch some terrorists is not good enough reason to give them all the means to preserve the status quo. I am not even talking about individual abuses that may occur, compared to society engineering, they are not that important anyway.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#32

Post by wyck »

kenjackson wrote: post #17

I think people have the FBIs motivations misunderstood. And I don't mean in some evil conspiracy theory sort of way, but in one that is pretty consistent with their mission. Their main mission nowadays is to stop terrorism, etc... I I think that when they look at this rationally they believe are better served by being able to access these conversations. The article theorizes that people with data to hide will use enc…

Being reasonable to try and reduce harm/work in this regard is not congruent with reality. What makes the FBI so different than the NSA? The latter already throwing billions down the hole in useless tech and encroaching on your freedom at the same time.

The article also does not mention something obvious, the FBI does not have earth-wide jurisdiction, moving to a "chat" or operating system hosted and built in another country is already available in many forms.

So they will encroach upon your freedom and throw your culture into the garbage to catch a bunch of dummies.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#33

Post by zeroexzeroone »

andrewljohnson wrote: post #23
siculars wrote: post #20

I say all of the above. There's basically one reason to work for law enforcement: Authority and its slutty sister, Power. People who are attracted to these things are susceptible to logic failures in pursuit of their interest in exerting Authority and Power.

Many people are drawn to law enforcement out of the desire to help others and do good for the world. Being an FBI agent is a very honorable and well-respected profession, especially outside of an internet forum. Your comment pisses on every person who ever went to school to study criminal law, many of whom did so for noble or at least neutral reasons.

I wholeheartedly agree - I was born on American soil and always felt that the FBI's profession was very admirable. I have had family members deal with the FBI and most of their field agents are second to none when it comes to being good at their jobs.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#34

Post by zeroexzeroone »

siculars wrote: post #20

I say all of the above. There's basically one reason to work for law enforcement: Authority and its slutty sister, Power. People who are attracted to these things are susceptible to logic failures in pursuit of their interest in exerting Authority and Power.

So if people who are attracted to law enforcement are hungry for Authority and Power then everyone else is attracted to Anarchy?

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#35

Post by betterunix »

nathan_long wrote: post #25
kenjackson wrote: post #17

I think people have the FBIs motivations misunderstood. And I don't mean in some evil conspiracy theory sort of way, but in one that is pretty consistent with their mission. Their main mission nowadays is to stop terrorism, etc... I I think that when they look at this rationally they believe are better served by being able to access these conversations. The article theorizes that people with data to hide will use enc…

Yes. Most of us here are privacy advocates, and I think society needs our voice. However, we're only one side of the coin. Imagine a world where every phone call, email, chat, forum post, etc is fully anonymous or indecipherable to law enforcement. And imagine your loved one has been abducted and law enforcement has no tools for finding those responsible. There are many kinds of dystopias. Big Brother is one. Rule by…

"Imagine a world where every phone call, email, chat, forum post, etc is fully anonymous or indecipherable to law enforcement. And imagine your loved one has been abducted and law enforcement has no tools for finding those responsible."

So somehow, these abductors managed to leave no physical evidence at all and no witnesses? What does communication privacy have to do with that?

There was once a time in this country when communications could be anonymous -- when law enforcement agencies did not have easy wiretapping access. We still managed to prosecute criminals then. Yes, sometimes criminals got away with their crimes, but that is what striking a balance is all about. The FBI is not trying to strike a balance with this proposal, they are trying to shift the balance in their favor.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#36

Post by zeroexzeroone »

LeoTolstoyJr wrote: post #5

Maybe I'm being naive, but what's preventing Google or Facebook from using their resources to launch a PR campaign against these requests from the FBI, or at the very least be a bit more outspoken about them?

Google used to have a very subtle way of telling you that an NSL was issued against you by asking you to "re-accept" their ToS. This may or may not be true, though.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#37

Post by tomjen3 »

nathan_long wrote: post #27
Jun8 wrote: post #8

You don't need such a long argument to prove FBI's stunning incompetence, an example like failing to prevent the Boston bombing where they couldn't find their assess with two hands would suffice.

>> failing to prevent the Boston bombing OK, you're in charge of the FBI now. There are tens of thousands of public events today in tens of thousand of venues. Protect them all. Go.

No I am not. I can't protect them so I wouldn't try to become the leader of the FBI. I also can't do surgery but if I come in to have some work done on my hand and leave with a foot chopped of I am going to sue the doctor.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#40

Post by TelmoMenezes »

nathan_long wrote: post #25
kenjackson wrote: post #17

I think people have the FBIs motivations misunderstood. And I don't mean in some evil conspiracy theory sort of way, but in one that is pretty consistent with their mission. Their main mission nowadays is to stop terrorism, etc... I I think that when they look at this rationally they believe are better served by being able to access these conversations. The article theorizes that people with data to hide will use enc…

Yes. Most of us here are privacy advocates, and I think society needs our voice. However, we're only one side of the coin. Imagine a world where every phone call, email, chat, forum post, etc is fully anonymous or indecipherable to law enforcement. And imagine your loved one has been abducted and law enforcement has no tools for finding those responsible. There are many kinds of dystopias. Big Brother is one. Rule by…

Rule by competing gangs is not a dystopia, it's the natural state that we were born into as animals and that we'be been living under for most of our history. We live largely under rule by competing gangs to the present day and are used to that. We prefer that to Big Brother. That's why the Berlin wall was built to keep people _inside_ the GDR and not the other way around.
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