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The Fallacy of Money As A Means

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Re: The Fallacy of Money As A Means

#91

Post by throwaway10wsit »

CurtMonash wrote: post #55

When I worked on Wall Street, it was common to have a "number" in mind -- a level of wealth one wanted to earn, after which one would retire. By way of contrast, I got out after I'd only worked there about 5 years, with enough savings to support me for only a few more. Frankly, I wish I'd stuck with it and solved the "earning money" problem for life for once and for all. I.e., while I'm generally in agreement with th…

(throwaway account) I have been working for 10 years as a software developer and manager of software development teams for a large investment bank. When I got started, and for the first 5 years or so, I thought that I could earn enough to save up and "solve the 'earning money' problem" doing this. Now, I don't think that's possible on this track.

I thought I'd get there in the beginning because I was doing very well at the job and getting more and more recognition and responsibility. Large bonuses were being given out to developers, and firms competed hard to get good ones. But then came the 2007-2008 financial crisis, and everything changed. The pay was reduced a lot--I have never made as much money as I did in 2006, despite having gotten a title promotion, and a larger role with much more responsibility, since then. New regulations have created a much more bureaucratic, administration-obsessed environment than I was accustomed to, making it much less pleasant for anyone interested in building and hacking.

So now I'm stuck at a local maximum--I feel like there could be a much better situation out there for me, but no direct step I could take to put myself in it. I still make enough that it would be tough to match my current salary outside of wall street, but the work environment has degenerated so much that I hate going to work, despite this taking most of my waking time and energy. So I have to make a choice: I can stay at a my current job, with its comfortable-but-not-stellar income and its ever-more-unpleasant work environment, or I could jump to another position (be it a new job or attempting to strike out on my own and develop a business and/or consulting) that could be more fulfilling, but much lower-paid, at least initially.

To those who would advise me to strike out on my own with a startup or consulting: my situation is complicated by my need to support my wife, who has a condition that would make it prohibitively expensive to get her the medical care she needs without employer-provided health insurance. (Nobody would insure us on the individual market--not at a price I could pay if I were just starting out on a business or consulting venture and attempting to live off my savings until it got off the ground, at least.)

I know this is not the worst problem in the world to have. A huge number of people would love to be in my shoes, and I can look at it from a larger perspective and see that I'm still damn lucky to be where I am and have what I have. But I'm not anywhere near able to "solve the 'earning money' problem" and I don't think I will be anytime soon. So I still find myself wishing I'd taken a leap earlier.

Of course, if I were a trader or had some other position in the actual business to make the REAL money, then it might have been a different story.

Re: The Fallacy of Money As A Means

#92

Post by anoncow »

I am in my early 30s. Do not have much in savings, have a job that takes up much of my time but won't really save me enough. I dô not know what my aim in life is. I have been thinking hard but I can't seem to pick one. I can rule out some, but I can't rule them out completely.

Family: I have little interest in starting a family. Where I live, overpopulation is a problem. I don't like driving. There isn't even enough place to park cars. Why does everyone have to buy a car?

Money: I have little interest in making a lot of money. Growing up, my family had enough money, but I saw how my parents really didn't have time for much else than making moey.

Name, Fame and acceptance: I think about this sometimes. My college peers are apparently well settled. Higher up in the job/salary/business/family heirarchy than I can hope reaching in my lifetime. Makes me sad a little thinking they must be looking down on me, but then I realise that it doesn't realy matter. I wouldn't have been happier if I had made the choices that they did in life and I wouldn't be happy chasing success just because I can have acceptance from my peers. Because all of us are individuals with separate lives. But all in all comparing myself to my peers makes me unhappy transiently, even when I know that I don't hate their success and being happy for them makes me happy.

Happiness: Sometimes I can pinpoint what makes me happy. Like when I am working on a hobby application,which turns out better than I expected. Or when I find a smarter way to implment a certain feature. Other times it is not that easy to say what makes me happy. Building something so I can be the next facebook or tumblr doesn't make me happy. Perhaps because I know that it is impossible.

A lot of the happiness problems is because of the need for social acceptance. I don't grudge my peers their success, but sometimes you feel the eyes of society scurutinizing you and judging you as a failure and that is what makes me unhappy, but only transiently. Because, I know that what society thinks about me is not that important. For eg. Currently it is important enough for me to be posting anonymously online, but not important enough to make me decide what I want to do in life.

But eventually thinking about the meaning of life does not lead to answers. Perhaps it is a difficult thing to understand. Or perhaps everyone else has it right and I am afraid of trying and losing.

I understand that the biological reason of life is procreation. But I understand little else. So I generally try to live in the present and try to save some money so I don't become a slave to my current job and eventually hope to be self employed, make enough money, not hurt others and maybe help others a little.

Re: The Fallacy of Money As A Means

#93

Post by greggman »

Zelphyr wrote: post #66
thedufer wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotes are fun, but the data suggests over and over again that financially successful parents have more financially successful children.

Your statement erroneously associates financial success with happiness. Provably untrue.

According to new research mo money = mo happy without limits

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/science-money-makes-you-hap...

Re: The Fallacy of Money As A Means

#94

Post by anoncow »

dragonwriter wrote: post #63
michaelochurch wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spot on. Money is a conflation of two social processes or decisions: a. Who gets to have private jets and get into hot nightclubs. b. Who gets to build things of importance to the world. Most of us are smart enough to have limited interest in (a)-- if that's what you're into, you'll never have enough-- but have an obsessive, sometimes anger-inducing and debilitating, focus on (b).

> Money is a conflation of two social processes or decisions: > a. Who gets to have private jets and get into hot nightclubs. > b. Who gets to build things of importance to the world. No, its not. Those two are two of the many aspects of the one thing that money is a determinant for: power. Or, "who gets to do what they want to do". "Have private jets and get into hot nightclubs" is just one of things people might wa…

People with money can do it if they want to. Other people have to try real hard. Want to have a nightclub lifestyle - become a bouncer/dancer. Want to live on private yatch - get a job on a somebody else's yatch(and imagine you are living your dream). Want to change the world - become a scientist and hope you get work on your topic of interest( or make the work that you get your topic of interest).

Re: The Fallacy of Money As A Means

#95

Post by coldtea »

calinet6 wrote: post #4

This is a generally short-sighted article, that looks inward but not at the bigger picture. I want to make a lot of money because I want to start a family, and I want them to have the best life and the best opportunities available. Not to be spoiled, but simply to have a good life. And that's just the start. I want to make money so I can help people. To be able to invest in things which might cure diseases, solve hun…

>This is a generally short-sighted article, that looks inward but not at the bigger picture. I want to make a lot of money because I want to start a family, and I want them to have the best life and the best opportunities available. Not to be spoiled, but simply to have a good life.

People have been doing that with 100K a year -- and much less.

>I want to make money so I can help people. To be able to invest in things which might cure diseases, solve hunger, produce cleaner cheaper energy. Things which might have an opportunity to drive humanity forward. I want to make money so that I can change the world. Not in the superficial way that people think you mean when you say that, but in real ways; in ways that create true value for humanity. Things that might drive us closer to a star-trek-esque free-energy economy.

Those sound like very peripheral things people want to make money for... Perhaps you mean it, but in most cases those are Miss USA style BS.

Re: The Fallacy of Money As A Means

#96

Post by Udo »

Money is not about peer acceptance, power, or "having nice things".

Money is freedom. This only dawned on me when I had absolutely nothing. Without money, you can't really do anything, all your choices have been taken from you. As you start accumulating money, more and more doors open up, and you are increasingly free to do what you like. Money is, almost by definition, the abstraction of means.

There's probably an upper cap for this effect, but I'd argue that 99% of us will never reach that.

Re: The Fallacy of Money As A Means

#97

Post by soup10 »

Udo wrote: post #96

Money is not about peer acceptance, power, or "having nice things". Money is freedom. This only dawned on me when I had absolutely nothing. Without money, you can't really do anything, all your choices have been taken from you. As you start accumulating money, more and more doors open up, and you are increasingly free to do what you like. Money is, almost by definition, the abstraction of means. There's probably an u…

This rings really true. It makes me sad when high income earners don't understand this, and live at or above their means. Instead of living below your means and stress free, many people get trapped in a sick consumerist loop where they spend at their means and/or take on debt. The enlightened know that the stress reduction of never having money problems is far better than living a life of maximum comfort/extravagance.

I wouldn't say that not middle-income means you have no freedom. It's more about perspective. If you view money as an enormous burden on your freedom to do whatever you want, then it becomes that. But you can do whatever you want, regardless. There's no requirement to have "fuck you money" to have a "fuck you, i'm not going to take your shit" attitude about life and relationships.

Re: The Fallacy of Money As A Means

#98

Post by Swizec »

Udo wrote: post #96

Money is not about peer acceptance, power, or "having nice things". Money is freedom. This only dawned on me when I had absolutely nothing. Without money, you can't really do anything, all your choices have been taken from you. As you start accumulating money, more and more doors open up, and you are increasingly free to do what you like. Money is, almost by definition, the abstraction of means. There's probably an u…

This, so much this.

My outlook on life is unimaginably different now that I have a few thousand euro lying around my bank account than it was right after I burned my last startup and I was forced to borrow shampoo.

Money == freedom.

Re: The Fallacy of Money As A Means

#100

Post by corresation »

Udo wrote: post #96

Money is not about peer acceptance, power, or "having nice things". Money is freedom. This only dawned on me when I had absolutely nothing. Without money, you can't really do anything, all your choices have been taken from you. As you start accumulating money, more and more doors open up, and you are increasingly free to do what you like. Money is, almost by definition, the abstraction of means. There's probably an u…

http://www.lomography.com/magazine/lifestyle/2011/10/06/stev...

I've seen that picture and story referenced many times as an example of a pure drive that isn't influenced by money. That it was "all you need".

At the time Steve Jobs was already a multi, multi-millionaire (from the IPO of Apple in 1980 he was worth some $200 million). He had the freedom to never worry about basic needs, could travel the world at his leisure, could do essentially what he wanted, etc. He had the sort of freedom that such wealth provides.

It is convenient to be in that position and no longer worry about money, because you're already there.

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