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Students are the victims and culprits of India’s broken higher education system

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Re: Students are the victims and culprits of India’s broken higher education system

#21

Post by _gotmilk »

There are no Indian universities in the top 200 universities according to the QS World Universities rankings. There are only 3 in the top 300! While I don't know if this is an institutional deficiency(lack of research, distinguished professors) or a lack of quality among students, one thing is for sure and that is Indian degrees are not very respected worldwide aside from possibly Indian Institute of Technology.

From what my father tells me, the K-12 education system is also broken. The public education system is considered a joke in India to the point that anyone who can enrolls their kids into private schools as soon as possible. Most students who pass India's rigorous college entrance exam take extensive coaching(as my cousins have), and this results in a system of college acceptance being determined by wealth.

The thing is, I can't see change coming. India has yet to address nationwide corruption that cripples the whole country!

Re: Students are the victims and culprits of India’s broken higher education system

#22

Post by lake99 »

manish_gill wrote: post #19
lake99 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll clarify. I'll make no comments about medicine - I know nothing about education in this field. The bachelors programs in the IITs are great, by global standards. IISc does some cool work too. Leaving those aside, a BS in engineering (called BE or BTech here) is not bad. We have some outdated courses, we don't have the freedom to choose courses, etc. But for most of our courses, we use the same textbooks as Americ…

> I suppose we have similar kinds of lab sessions too. No! Not by far. The "lab sessions" in a typical non-IIT Indian engineering institutes are a joke. Ever heard of the Borland Turbo C compiler? Yeah, that's still used to teach students C/C++, with outdated (and non-standard) code. I've had similarly horrible experience in any and all labs, be it circuits and systems, networking, or whatever else you might think of…

This is a random sample. How different was your lab session compared to http://engr.case.edu/merat_francis/eecs245/EECS%20245%20Syll... ?

Re: Students are the victims and culprits of India’s broken higher education system

#23

Post by anoncow »

crimsonzagar wrote: post #6
test001only wrote: post #2

The problem pointed out in the article is a commonly accepted truth in India. Some hard truth - even though there have been many efforts to bring the economically and socially under developed class into the mainstream, it has not happened yet. Most of the students who even come to UG especially college's like St. Stephens are from middle class or upper middle class families. They have very little incentive to fight t…

Agreed! Emphasis is not given to 'economic' or 'social' need but only to caste-wise situation. If your papa's uncle is on the driving seat of the Government, you're in the game. In many ways we Indians deserve the shit we live in. How many of us actively participate in politics? No one comes forward even if there is incentive to do so. In fact many armchair experts criticize Anna Hazare or Arvind Kejriwal who at leas…

True about politics. And there is a lot of corruption and politics of hate. We are stuck between a corrupt party who also play caste/religion and a party who plays the religion card and is equally corrupt.

If you are born into a particular religion, you are stuck with it (even if you don't give a damn about religion) and you get the impression that everyone wants to kill you or throw you into the extremely shitty neighbouring country. The same is true to an extent about caste. I have seen educated penple getting married on the basis of caste and religion, even with all the globalization. People support political leaders based on caste and religion. Religion plays a big role in India. You aren't what you are. You are just one more member of one team or another. And people live accordingly.

Sorry for the rant. I suppose conditions are not as bad as that in Pakistan or the middle east. And religious-background intolerance is commonplace in the west too.

Re: Students are the victims and culprits of India’s broken higher education system

#24

Post by diffoperator »

ilamont wrote: post #12

I had a history professor who attended Berkeley in the 60s. He recalled the instructional methods used by one of his own professors at Berkeley: He simply got up to the podium, opened a textbook, and started reading. There was no discussion or chances to ask questions. As I recall, he indicated that this was a method of lecturing that had its roots in European academia. A question for HNers from India: With such a lo…

Most of the US educated academicians who teach in India are normally at the IITs (engineering schools) and IIMs (management schools). The teaching styles of professors at these schools are identical to US schools, however their effectiveness is debatable. To be fair to them, they are usually ham-strung by institution-wide regulations such as a guideline that 80% of the grade be determined by a mid-term and a final (I know this is the case at IIT Kharagpur, not sure about the others). They are not as productive research wise because while the graduate students in the US are competent and (usually) smarter than undergraduates, the reverse is true at most Indian institutes (the smart guys go abroad). There is no room for mentoring because undergraduates have a heavy courseload (5-6 technical courses per semester) and the professors have a lot of administrative work apart from teaching.

Re: Students are the victims and culprits of India’s broken higher education system

#25

Post by anoncow »

test001only wrote: post #8
crimsonzagar wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed! Emphasis is not given to 'economic' or 'social' need but only to caste-wise situation. If your papa's uncle is on the driving seat of the Government, you're in the game. In many ways we Indians deserve the shit we live in. How many of us actively participate in politics? No one comes forward even if there is incentive to do so. In fact many armchair experts criticize Anna Hazare or Arvind Kejriwal who at leas…

I am not sure in which part you disagree with me. Yes most of the present youth in India - who are in a position to make an impact, are not doing it. A very simple case - they would rather pay the bribe to get LPG connection rather than fight. But the poor, they cannot do that and they are not in a position to make an impact and are trapped. This is a vicious circle. The effect of reservation based on caste is debata…

I did the no bribe thing once. I wanted a certificate and the officer wouldn't give me one. Went to the bmc office almost every week for 3 months. Gandhiji would have got me the certificate on the very first day.

Re: Students are the victims and culprits of India’s broken higher education system

#26

Post by manish_gill »

lake99 wrote: post #22
manish_gill wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suppose we have similar kinds of lab sessions too. No! Not by far. The "lab sessions" in a typical non-IIT Indian engineering institutes are a joke. Ever heard of the Borland Turbo C compiler? Yeah, that's still used to teach students C/C++, with outdated (and non-standard) code. I've had similarly horrible experience in any and all labs, be it circuits and systems, networking, or whatever else you might think of…

This is a random sample. How different was your lab session compared to http://engr.case.edu/merat_francis/eecs245/EECS%20245%20Syll... ?

The mere fact that the instructor has a schedule put up and sticks to it makes it better than any lab session I had.

Oh, and it's not just something I alone experienced, so writing it off as a "random sample" makes no sense. This is /the/ situation with most colleges here. Which is kinda the entire point of the article.

Re: Students are the victims and culprits of India’s broken higher education system

#27

Post by anoncow »

lake99 wrote: post #15
jbattle wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a little confused - you are saying the article is overstating things, but that degrees in science, engineering, academia, and possibly medicine are "mostly useless"?

I'll clarify. I'll make no comments about medicine - I know nothing about education in this field. The bachelors programs in the IITs are great, by global standards. IISc does some cool work too. Leaving those aside, a BS in engineering (called BE or BTech here) is not bad. We have some outdated courses, we don't have the freedom to choose courses, etc. But for most of our courses, we use the same textbooks as Americ…

I will put in a word about medicine. Government run medical colleges are good because they have a lot of patients. Private medical colleges for the most part are in the business of selling seats to the highest bidder.

Recently, the central govt proposed a single nationwide entrance test to curb the seat selling. Private colleges filed a case against it and won.(search for NEET exams)

Re: Students are the victims and culprits of India’s broken higher education system

#28

Post by [deleted] »

manish_gill wrote: post #19
lake99 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll clarify. I'll make no comments about medicine - I know nothing about education in this field. The bachelors programs in the IITs are great, by global standards. IISc does some cool work too. Leaving those aside, a BS in engineering (called BE or BTech here) is not bad. We have some outdated courses, we don't have the freedom to choose courses, etc. But for most of our courses, we use the same textbooks as Americ…

> I suppose we have similar kinds of lab sessions too. No! Not by far. The "lab sessions" in a typical non-IIT Indian engineering institutes are a joke. Ever heard of the Borland Turbo C compiler? Yeah, that's still used to teach students C/C++, with outdated (and non-standard) code. I've had similarly horrible experience in any and all labs, be it circuits and systems, networking, or whatever else you might think of…

[deleted]

Re: Students are the victims and culprits of India’s broken higher education system

#29

Post by lake99 »

manish_gill wrote: post #26
lake99 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a random sample. How different was your lab session compared to http://engr.case.edu/merat_francis/eecs245/EECS%20245%20Syll... ?

The mere fact that the instructor has a schedule put up and sticks to it makes it better than any lab session I had. Oh, and it's not just something I alone experienced, so writing it off as a "random sample" makes no sense. This is /the/ situation with most colleges here. Which is kinda the entire point of the article.

> The mere fact that the instructor has a schedule put up and sticks to it makes it better than any lab session I had.

You seem to be impressed by the oddest things! FWIW, our labs adhered to a schedule too. Engineering colleges in India fall on some range within the spectrum. You seem to have studied at one of the poorer ones. k4rtik, below, seems to have studied at one of the better ones.

When I made judgements, I made it on the basis of the output of Indian and western colleagues. Compiler versions are a non-issue for me. µA741, though outdated, taught me well enough.

Re: Students are the victims and culprits of India’s broken higher education system

#30

Post by lake99 »

ilamont wrote: post #12

I had a history professor who attended Berkeley in the 60s. He recalled the instructional methods used by one of his own professors at Berkeley: He simply got up to the podium, opened a textbook, and started reading. There was no discussion or chances to ask questions. As I recall, he indicated that this was a method of lecturing that had its roots in European academia. A question for HNers from India: With such a lo…

> are Anglo-American methods [...] transferred back to Indian universities by returnees who start academic careers?

Of all the people I have come across, only two of them finished a session of post-doc in the west, and came back to India. One of them is at IISc, and I forgot where the other one is.

To answer your question: my impression is that Indian academics seldom continue their academics in India. Most Indians who have earned a name in my (secret) field continue as profs in the west, take on Indian and non-Indian students, and teach them all the same way.

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