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Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

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Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#161

Post by JackFr »

mncolinlee wrote: post #152
Shivetya wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they are not free, they are paid by any consumer who directly or indirectly has a relationship with someone who purchases a vehicle from one of the makers who is paying these credits. Voluntary my ass. If they don't pay what happens? Your fined. Its a tax. It is paid by consumers because they buy cars. If anything its California's way of having people in other states fund their initiatives. I guess kudos can go to Mu…

I suppose you would argue that we should all just pay all externalities created by the free market even if they would simply bankrupt or kill us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality For example, if HSBC knowingly funded murderous, criminal gangs around the world, they should be allowed to finance killing because it helps them pursue profit? http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/outrageo... Car comp…

Two points. (1)The externalities are not caused by either the car makers or the oil producers. They are caused by drivers. Driving creates the emissions, and under a fair system drivers should bear the costs. (2) Mandating fuel efficient cars has the same effect on consumption as reducing the cost of gasoline.

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#162

Post by a1a »

ghshephard wrote: post #101
noname123 wrote: post #23

The reason why Tesla is able to pay the Dept of Energy loan early is because of a secondary stock and bonds offering worth about >850+ million. In another words, Tesla is raising funds by generating more debt (from bondholders) and diluting share value (from shareholders), roughly about 3.5 mil out of 40 mil float, and using that money to pay the US govt. TSLA rose on the news despite diluting shareholders is because…

It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN. Can't we celebrate a company, that was called out as a bad stimulus target during the presidential debates actually paying back all their loans ahead of time? If there was one place I hoped I could go to celebrate an innovative company's success, it would be HN. I take particular issue with, "Make no mistake, this is…

>> It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN.

I disagree. This is actually the kind of posts that makes me want to check into HN. The poster knows what he talks about and he shares his view on the matter.

For comparison, read the Reddit comments about the same link: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1evskd/tesla_rep...

.. and next time, please skip the fallacy of attacking something irrelevant, i.e. what kinds of posts you like and what you think fits on HN, instead of the argument itself.

Notice: I'm only annoyed by the first two lines of your post, the rest I think is a valid argument.

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#163

Post by danielweber »

ericcumbee wrote: post #97
rayiner wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's bankruptcy as in a controlled restructuring, and then there is bankruptcy as in a failure of the business with ripple effects throughout the economy. What GM went through was the former, and it was foreseen at the time of the government's investment.

There was nothing to keep them from going through a controlled bankruptcy at the start of it.

People forget just how amazingly tight the credit markets were at that time. Extremely tight.

To keep it short, the bailouts of both the auto sector and the banks were bad, but probably the least bad of a bunch of very worse options. The moral hazard problems with both of them are significant. (It's personally good to fail at the same time as everyone else, because you get bailed out, while we really want systems where failures are independent.)

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#164

Post by mncolinlee »

JackFr wrote: post #161
mncolinlee wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose you would argue that we should all just pay all externalities created by the free market even if they would simply bankrupt or kill us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality For example, if HSBC knowingly funded murderous, criminal gangs around the world, they should be allowed to finance killing because it helps them pursue profit? http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/outrageo... Car comp…

Two points. (1)The externalities are not caused by either the car makers or the oil producers. They are caused by drivers. Driving creates the emissions, and under a fair system drivers should bear the costs. (2) Mandating fuel efficient cars has the same effect on consumption as reducing the cost of gasoline.

#1 is only partly true. California proved most pollution can be stopped by the car's factory-provided emission controls before the driver ever enters the vehicle. The car maker has a great macro effect in reducing pollution. This is hugely important to Los Angeles, which is located in a bowl and has suffered from a considerable number of smog-related deaths and health costs.

#2 is incorrect. They did not mandate fuel efficient cars to reduce consumption. They mandated a certain percentage of zero and near zero emission cars. As an electric vehicle owner, I can reassure you that this does not automatically result in more miles traveled.

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#165

Post by joshdance »

ghshephard wrote: post #101
noname123 wrote: post #23

The reason why Tesla is able to pay the Dept of Energy loan early is because of a secondary stock and bonds offering worth about >850+ million. In another words, Tesla is raising funds by generating more debt (from bondholders) and diluting share value (from shareholders), roughly about 3.5 mil out of 40 mil float, and using that money to pay the US govt. TSLA rose on the news despite diluting shareholders is because…

It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN. Can't we celebrate a company, that was called out as a bad stimulus target during the presidential debates actually paying back all their loans ahead of time? If there was one place I hoped I could go to celebrate an innovative company's success, it would be HN. I take particular issue with, "Make no mistake, this is…

I agree. Let's applaude the lone electric car success.

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#166

Post by [deleted] »

Uhhrrr wrote: post #95
rtpg wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>some company which might buy all the assets at bankruptcy prices and then hire workers on much more favorable terms. You do realise that care companies are one of the most asset-heavy companies in the world right? Nobody would have been able to pick up the pieces in a credit-crunch recession. Independently of that, there would still have been a long period between the shutdown of the company and it being picked up,…

>Nobody would have been able to pick up the pieces in a credit-crunch recession. All the pieces? No. But some. With a chance at picking up an additional 10+% of the US market, you don't think Toyota or similar could get enough credit to buy a couple factories and hire the better half of the laid-off workers?

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#167

Post by dreamdu5t »

ghshephard wrote: post #101
noname123 wrote: post #23

The reason why Tesla is able to pay the Dept of Energy loan early is because of a secondary stock and bonds offering worth about >850+ million. In another words, Tesla is raising funds by generating more debt (from bondholders) and diluting share value (from shareholders), roughly about 3.5 mil out of 40 mil float, and using that money to pay the US govt. TSLA rose on the news despite diluting shareholders is because…

It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN. Can't we celebrate a company, that was called out as a bad stimulus target during the presidential debates actually paying back all their loans ahead of time? If there was one place I hoped I could go to celebrate an innovative company's success, it would be HN. I take particular issue with, "Make no mistake, this is…

I can't get a clear picture on how much Tesla's success is a result of government subsidies, loans, and windfalls.

For example, at one point Musk said 10% of their revenue was from selling carbon credits they get for each car they sell to other car companies.

What's difficult for me is there's no place where you can get a decent summary of the kind of government programs Tesla relies on or takes advantage of.

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#168

Post by mempko »

ghshephard wrote: post #131
tptacek wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't read this comment nearly as negatively as you seemed to have.

It was a gut reaction to the "PR ploy to Pump" phrasing - which made TSLA sound like some kind of boiler-room operation engaging in shady behavior. Also, it would have been nice to come to HN and see the top rated article on TSLA calling out all the positives, rather than focussing no the Debt, Dilution, Loss that TSLA is experiencing. It's important to take time to celebrate victories, ours, and the people/organizat…

Tesla takes money out of people's pockets (the tax payers)and gives rich people fancy cars to drive. Not sure how to celebrate that...

They payed back their loan to the tax payers by taking out a loan from someone else, not by selling a car at a profit and making a successful product.

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#169

Post by mempko »

mncolinlee wrote: post #41
noname123 wrote: post #23

The reason why Tesla is able to pay the Dept of Energy loan early is because of a secondary stock and bonds offering worth about >850+ million. In another words, Tesla is raising funds by generating more debt (from bondholders) and diluting share value (from shareholders), roughly about 3.5 mil out of 40 mil float, and using that money to pay the US govt. TSLA rose on the news despite diluting shareholders is because…

There's something bizarre about griping that they reached profitability from green credits. To clarify, these green credits were voluntarily paid by OTHER CAR COMPANIES like Fiat who did not innovate enough to develop their own green cars. In essence, these credits work similarly to carbon credits or sulfur credits. They are NOT paid by taxpayers or by the government in any way. It was a capitalist regulation in Cali…

How many emissions do you suppose get emitted by all the metal, plastic, and rare metals that get dug up to create a tesla. What exactly is green about it?

Wouldn't it be more green for our society to pay for mass transit instead?

But apparently the only way to get something done is through companies and the market...

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#170

Post by dreamdu5t »

jabits wrote: post #115
sageikosa wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must remember that when the government decrees that everyone must do something or else and everyone does it, it is considered voluntary.

Yes, because our government is there by our voluntary action. If we find our government is making us do things involuntarily, we can change it.

What action did I take that constitutes my volunteering of government's legitimacy?
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