Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#111

Post by BHSPitMonkey » Thu, May 23, 2013, 2:44 AM UTC

ghshephard wrote: post #101

noname123 wrote: post #23

The reason why Tesla is able to pay the Dept of Energy loan early is because of a secondary stock and bonds offering worth about >850+ million. In another words, Tesla is raising funds by generating more debt (from bondholders) and diluting share value (from shareholders), roughly about 3.5 mil out of 40 mil float, and using that money to pay the US govt. TSLA rose on the news despite diluting shareholders is because…

It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN. Can't we celebrate a company, that was called out as a bad stimulus target during the presidential debates actually paying back all their loans ahead of time? If there was one place I hoped I could go to celebrate an innovative company's success, it would be HN. I take particular issue with, "Make no mistake, this is…

> It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN.

Posts that provide insightful explanation about the story? Yes, less of that and more unqualified positive gushing, please. There is nothing wrong with offering an informed opinion, even if (especially if) it's not in full alignment with the prevailing attitude of the hivemind.

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#112

Post by JunkDNA » Thu, May 23, 2013, 2:49 AM UTC

MarkMc wrote: post #57

Mitt Romney must hate Tesla - it is a textbook example of why governments should sometimes mess with free markets. If the government had not provided this loan Tesla would have gone bankrupt and the US would have lost a significant high-tech asset. 99% of the time the market is more efficient than government, but that other 1% counts for a lot.

The right wing argument against government meddling isn't that it doesn't work sometimes (broken clocks being right twice a day and all that). The complaint is that, in aggregate, for every Tesla there are countless Solyndras. Governments aren't good at picking investments for the exact same reason individual people are not good at picking investments: predicting the future is hard. It's doubly hard when governments do it because of the distorting influence of constituents and politics. Let the private sector keep that money and if Elon convinces enough people to lend him cash, he can move forward. I have no doubt he could have done everything he has without a loan from Uncle Sam.

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#113

Post by Coko » Thu, May 23, 2013, 2:57 AM UTC

I usually don't comment, but I'm surprised that I haven't seen anyone mention what I think is the most important part of the story.

The DOE loan was an attractive low-interest loan. Why would they repay it early? Because the DOE loan had restrictive agreements that prevented Tesla to stay competitive.

From page 44 of their May 10th Quarterly Report SEC Filing:

"Our DOE Loan Facility documents contain customary covenants that include, among others, a requirement that the project be conducted in accordance with the business plan for such project, compliance with all requirements of the ATVM Program, and limitations on our and our subsidiaries’ ability to incur indebtedness, incur liens, make investments or loans, enter into mergers or acquisitions, dispose of assets, pay dividends or make distributions on capital stock, prepay indebtedness, pay management, advisory or similar fees to affiliates, enter into certain affiliate transactions, enter into new lines of business and enter into certain restrictive agreements. These restrictions may limit our ability to operate our business and may cause us to take actions or prevent us from taking actions we believe are necessary from a competitive standpoint or that we otherwise believe are necessary to grow our business. In addition, our DOE Loan Facility also contains a variety of customary financial covenants, including covenants related to current ratio, leverage ratio, interest coverage ratio and fixed charge coverage ratio. We modified certain of these covenants in February 2012, September 2012, and again in March 2013."

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#114

Post by tomasien » Thu, May 23, 2013, 3:04 AM UTC

noname123 wrote: post #23

The reason why Tesla is able to pay the Dept of Energy loan early is because of a secondary stock and bonds offering worth about >850+ million. In another words, Tesla is raising funds by generating more debt (from bondholders) and diluting share value (from shareholders), roughly about 3.5 mil out of 40 mil float, and using that money to pay the US govt. TSLA rose on the news despite diluting shareholders is because…

WHO IS UPVOTING THIS PREDICTABLY NEGATIVE SHIT ON HN? What is this? How does this happen? I'm just stunned. Every single time. It's never even the "that's awesome! Keep in mind, there's this additional context" posts, it's just the "this isn't actually awesome, here's why" posts.

NO. It's awesome that a private company sold stock that is hot because they're doing well to pay back public debt. Good for fucking them. People wanted to buy it because they see it as valuable, and they paid back the American people with some of that money. Good for them, period.

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#115

Post by jabits » Thu, May 23, 2013, 3:09 AM UTC

sageikosa wrote: post #62

Shivetya wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they are not free, they are paid by any consumer who directly or indirectly has a relationship with someone who purchases a vehicle from one of the makers who is paying these credits. Voluntary my ass. If they don't pay what happens? Your fined. Its a tax. It is paid by consumers because they buy cars. If anything its California's way of having people in other states fund their initiatives. I guess kudos can go to Mu…

You must remember that when the government decrees that everyone must do something or else and everyone does it, it is considered voluntary.

Yes, because our government is there by our voluntary action. If we find our government is making us do things involuntarily, we can change it.

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#116

Post by baddox » Thu, May 23, 2013, 3:15 AM UTC

ghshephard wrote: post #101

noname123 wrote: post #23

The reason why Tesla is able to pay the Dept of Energy loan early is because of a secondary stock and bonds offering worth about >850+ million. In another words, Tesla is raising funds by generating more debt (from bondholders) and diluting share value (from shareholders), roughly about 3.5 mil out of 40 mil float, and using that money to pay the US govt. TSLA rose on the news despite diluting shareholders is because…

It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN. Can't we celebrate a company, that was called out as a bad stimulus target during the presidential debates actually paying back all their loans ahead of time? If there was one place I hoped I could go to celebrate an innovative company's success, it would be HN. I take particular issue with, "Make no mistake, this is…

If celebrating the actions of trendy companies and founders is what you're after, the vast majority of Hacker News should be very satisfying to you. Comments like the one you replied to are much rarer.

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#117

Post by baddox » Thu, May 23, 2013, 3:17 AM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #81

sillysaurus wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your negativity here. It didn't read as negative.

Ploy, Noun: A cunning plan or action designed to turn a situation to one's own advantage. Synonyms: trick It definitely has a negative connotation.

Not to me. Any plan designed to turn a situation to one's own disadvantage is by definition foolish.

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#118

Post by tomasien » Thu, May 23, 2013, 3:23 AM UTC

noname123 wrote: post #23

The reason why Tesla is able to pay the Dept of Energy loan early is because of a secondary stock and bonds offering worth about >850+ million. In another words, Tesla is raising funds by generating more debt (from bondholders) and diluting share value (from shareholders), roughly about 3.5 mil out of 40 mil float, and using that money to pay the US govt. TSLA rose on the news despite diluting shareholders is because…

I'm not even mad at noname123 for posting this! I'm not! It's totally legit to make this post, although it's not as good as it could be, it's fine. JUST STOP UPVOTING IT!

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#119

Post by ricardobeat » Thu, May 23, 2013, 3:25 AM UTC

duck wrote: post #94

rayiner wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was using "Detroit" in this context as a metaphor for the car industry. GM going bankrupt would bankrupt a ton of suppliers spread throughout the midwest. As for Detroit, its problem has nothing to do with entitlements. Detroit was never New York or San Francisco, after all, in terms of entitlements. The midwestern industrial cities all have the same problem, and it's not entitlements, it's the automation of Americ…

Read up on the "Model Cities Program" and I think you'll see what I was talking about, even in regards to automation. In terms of if GM had gone bankrupt, I think any supplier that was competitive at the time would still be here today. They may be supplying their goods to a different manufacture along with some other hardships, but companies that are competitive and in control of their workforce can make those change…

I think you underestimate the size and breadth of car manufacturing supply chains. Its very common for suppliers to build new factories/warehouses near a car manufacturing plant solely for them. You can just "make changes" if the plant is shut down.

Re: Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early

#120

Post by ghshephard » Thu, May 23, 2013, 3:32 AM UTC

baddox wrote: post #116

ghshephard wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN. Can't we celebrate a company, that was called out as a bad stimulus target during the presidential debates actually paying back all their loans ahead of time? If there was one place I hoped I could go to celebrate an innovative company's success, it would be HN. I take particular issue with, "Make no mistake, this is…

If celebrating the actions of trendy companies and founders is what you're after, the vast majority of Hacker News should be very satisfying to you. Comments like the one you replied to are much rarer.

It's not the case that we have to blindly praise a company - but calling something as significant as raising $450mm in the public markets to pay back the government loans a "PR Ploy" saddens me, because that was a very real, and impressive accomplishment.

Musk/Tesla aren't without their issues, and, as John Siracusa showed us on "Hypercritical" - you can simultaneously appreciate something but still point out all of its flaws in glorious detail -but it's the frequent reflex to use the pejorative when describing intent or action, even on a good day like this, that brings down the tone of conversation.