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Doctoral degrees: The disposable academic (2010)

economist.com

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Re: Doctoral degrees: The disposable academic (2010)

#81

Post by lifeisstillgood »

dumitrue wrote: post #20
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On that note can anyone explain to me why immigration reform is a hot button in us politics - surely if you want to employ someone from outside the US you tell them to use Skype. A plane ticket every six weeks will increase your selection far more than anything congress can pass - especially for a hot coder with you know family and commitments Or is that it - let the cheap young single coders in ?

H1Bs can't vote you out of office so it's easy to be against them, the risk is lower to lose political capital (especially if you frame the discussion in terms of "protecting the jobs for Americans").

But immigration laws one way or another do not stop a company in SV hiring a fantastic JS coder in Helsinki

American jobs is the wrong term - google jobs, apple jobs, Facebook jobs - all up for grabs by the best in the world

Re: Doctoral degrees: The disposable academic (2010)

#82

Post by vlasev »

anologwintermut wrote: post #29
wmf wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't read the literature because it's behind a paywall that you can't afford, it's very likely that any papers you write will be rejected for poor form, lack of proper citations, and possibly being entirely redundant. I think there are much bigger problems trying to perform research outside "the system", but access to the literature is an issue.

Most research papers are findable via Google. Authors post them online. The better argument for open access is merely that universities shouldn't be paying for or private parties profiting from providing access to publicly funded research Often times, the knowledge guild is actually never put down on paper. You, sadly, need to be at a university where people are working on what you want to be able to do anything. Pap…

It's often such a PITA to find free research papers if you don't have access to the paid journals. If it's just one paper, it's not such a big issue. The trouble is one of scale. A researcher usually puts a lot of time into looking for all the references and papers to read. If this researcher doesn't have direct free access to these papers and has to look them up on google every time, this increases the overhead significantly. We're talking about dozens of papers just to get started well on a topic.

Here's an example. When I did math research last summer at my university, I looked at 16 papers. It took a while to gather these even with my university account with which I obtained the articles for free. If I had to google every single article, it would have taken me much more time - at least double if not triple the time.

Re: Doctoral degrees: The disposable academic (2010)

#83

Post by vlasev »

tychonoff wrote: post #49

I obtained a PhD in pure math 30 years ago, and promptly went into computing with no programming skills. Mathematics allowed me to see things in a more general light, appreciate the importance of elegant code, and work on interesting problems that others might find difficult (eg. graph-theoretic constructions, encryption, etc.). And it's really nice to formulate and prove your own theorems just to make your code work…

The right question to ask yourself is would have your experience been any different if you worked on a Master's in pure math instead?

Re: Doctoral degrees: The disposable academic (2010)

#84

Post by rdfi »

gchpaco wrote: post #46
sgt101 wrote: post #8

It takes a certain poverty of mind to quantify the value of an education in terms of earnings. I don't earn a huge amount, but I have a fantastic job, I live in a wonderful place about 5 minutes from my office and doing my Ph.D. was the best thing that I ever did. I agree that you don't need one, and many people with one that I have met and employed are fairly hopeless (in comparison to razor sharp and super talented…

I spent seven years doing a PhD in Computer Science. It was an unpleasant experience from about year three or four on and I would have gotten the masters' and left before finishing if I knew then what I know now, and probably a) not gone through a suicidally depressive period b) have done more interesting work c) traveled more since I could afford it and d) also been paid more. The educational aspects of a PhD, at le…

The requirement to constantly be publishing is ridiculous, no wonder there are cases like the one reported in nature (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v485/n7396/full/485041e...) where in 56 paper only 6 had results that were successfully reproduced :( And this is cancer research...

Re: Doctoral degrees: The disposable academic (2010)

#85

Post by Adrock »

mathattack wrote: post #58
drobilla wrote: post #23

Someone needs to write a "why getting a job in industry is a waste of time" rebuttal to this tired argument to illustrate how ridiculous it is to evaluate everything with a single (and shallow) goal structure. After all, it typically doesn't contribute anything new or meaningful to scientific knowledge, therefore it is a waste of time (...). I guess I shouldn't expect any better from The Economist, but not everyone i…

Very true. Most programmers in NYC could get a raise going to Wall Street. They don't do it because they don't like the abuse. Most Physics professors could get a raise going to Wall Street. They don't do it for a variety of reasons. It's about more than money. But... The core of the story is true. There's a systemic problem with the Phd market. Every school and professor has an incentive to churn out more than the m…

There are programmer jobs in finance that don't entail abuse.

Re: Doctoral degrees: The disposable academic (2010)

#86

Post by fragsworth »

vlasev wrote: post #79
fragsworth wrote: post #69

Several possible reasons why there might be too many people getting Ph.D's: 1) It's the only way to get a job in certain really interesting fields 2) Ph.D's garner massive respect from peers 3) Disrespect for industry, there's a perception of tedium, and looking down on people who are "code monkeys" or "project managers" 4) Some kind of academic momentum - it's socially and psychologically easier to stay in college/a…

I have to disagree with you on points 1-3. They are the minor points. I think number 4 should be on top of your list. Number 4 and then number 3 together probably make up 90% of the real reason why people end up doing a phd.

Perhaps. But the minor points are the ones most Ph.D's will say are their reasons. The last one (social/psychological) is probably the least likely to be admitted.

Re: Doctoral degrees: The disposable academic (2010)

#87

Post by enraged_camel »

md224 wrote: post #26
enraged_camel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>It takes a certain poverty of mind to quantify the value of an education in terms of earnings. I don't know... If I spend up to 7 years of my life studying and researching my ass off to become one of the foremost experts in a specialized field, then it better have more benefits than just personal satisfaction. A fantastic job with good living arrangements do not require a Ph.D.

> If I spend up to 7 years of my life studying and researching my ass off to become one of the foremost experts in a specialized field, then it better have more benefits than just personal satisfaction. I respect your desire for more money in exchange for more commitment, but we should also recognize that money is but one of many motivators, all of which are ultimately in the service of increasing personal satisfacti…

Perhaps this is a cultural difference. I am not American, and therefore I don't really subscribe to the individualist perspective that everything ultimately serves the purpose of increasing personal satisfaction.

Re: Doctoral degrees: The disposable academic (2010)

#88

Post by andrewcooke »

VLM wrote: post #76
andrewcooke wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i know plenty of academics with healthy, safe, spouses and children. they eat just fine.

Can't have it both ways. The article says they're not doing as well financially compared to the non-academic path. Well, if you really loved science you'd do it anyway, and its not all about the money, and scientists are supposed to be poor because thats how its always been. OK whatever I'm not doing that to my kids. Oh OK well it turns out that despite the article, the ones I know are doing great. Um nope, its one o…

or maybe the problem is that "not doing as well financially" is not identical to "starving to death in poverty"?

Re: Doctoral degrees: The disposable academic (2010)

#90

Post by mathattack »

Adrock wrote: post #85
mathattack wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. Most programmers in NYC could get a raise going to Wall Street. They don't do it because they don't like the abuse. Most Physics professors could get a raise going to Wall Street. They don't do it for a variety of reasons. It's about more than money. But... The core of the story is true. There's a systemic problem with the Phd market. Every school and professor has an incentive to churn out more than the m…

There are programmer jobs in finance that don't entail abuse.

Finance yes. Finance that are close enough to the trading to warrant good money - less so.
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