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Hacker News is depressing

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Re: Hacker News is depressing

#341

Post by davewiner »

danilocampos wrote: post #316
davewiner wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to hear the true story behind why this guy has such a thing for me. As far as I know we've never met. Something is bothering him. It sure as hell isn't this blog post. Not enough there to make such a big deal about.

The true story isn't anything more than I think your writing would be a whole lot more effective if you weren't so impressed by yourself. Your blog reads like an ongoing hagiography of the sort the North Koreans would write. While that vanity gets tiring, it's not a crime. What's maddening is your lack of intellectually honest engagement of critique on that or any other matter. And your position, implied by your comm…

Daniel, you need to understand something -- it's a blog.

That's what blogs are about. One person's view of things.

It's not intended to be objective.

Now, you don't engage in "intellectually honest critiques."

If you think that's what you're doing, try getting a second opinion on that. You're a flamer. I don't engage with people who do that. Sorry.

I don't like your style -- I don't imagine you care about that, just as I don't care whether you like the way I write.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#342

Post by davewiner »

takluyver wrote: post #340
danilocampos wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The true story isn't anything more than I think your writing would be a whole lot more effective if you weren't so impressed by yourself. Your blog reads like an ongoing hagiography of the sort the North Koreans would write. While that vanity gets tiring, it's not a crime. What's maddening is your lack of intellectually honest engagement of critique on that or any other matter. And your position, implied by your comm…

I've just gone and read through a few recent entries from Dave's blog. I can see some name dropping, but I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. It's not a self-serving hagiography, at least from my sample. He's proud of what he's done, but I expect a degree of that in a blog. If you don't like his style of writing, you don't have to read it. You accuse him of refusing to engage with criticism, which is q…

It's a blog for crying out loud!

I've written in other contexts where it's a different tone. But that's how blogs are.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#343

Post by 6d0debc071 »

stackcollision wrote: post #187
shadowfiend wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no fundamental incompatibility between being honest and being respectful and understanding. You can tell someone “you suck, go back to the corner of the Internet you came from, I don't have time for this”, or you can tell them “your skills don't seem to be quite at the level where we can accept your contributions; in particular, you don't understand X, Y, and Z very well and it shows in your code. I'm short…

Or, to quote Heinlein: 'Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naïve, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery tha…

Formalities indicate social distance, they're general-fit heuristics. Of course they seem dishonest to kids, when you're friendly with your friends and don't need them, and when the other option is that you hold someone in poor regard, they can never be anything but lies.

I suspect anyone who's ever written an inter-company email will know the value of having a formal way of speaking that is unlikely to give offence though.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#344

Post by davewiner »

MartinCron wrote: post #306
davewiner wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What transgressions? It was just a story! You guys are amazing to me, how you can inflate something as simple as a story into this monumental thing. I wrote the piece in 15 minutes. You're spending 48 hours debating every nuance of something that means nothing. Totally bizarre.

Sorry Dave, this is bigger than just you :) I care about being a part of a community that doesn't let the escalation of (real and perceived) slights debase the overall conversation. That's what I'm talking about. You spent 15 minutes on a story, I've spent the last few years trying to be a constructive part of this community.

Okay that's cool. It's just that you said some things about me that are wrong. You seem like a nice person. Just know that I'm not who you think I am.

I get this all the time. When people hear how I talk they're suprised because it's not the voice they hear when they read my writing. But I write just the way I talk. Funny how that is. ;-)

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#347

Post by davewiner »

danilocampos wrote: post #316
davewiner wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to hear the true story behind why this guy has such a thing for me. As far as I know we've never met. Something is bothering him. It sure as hell isn't this blog post. Not enough there to make such a big deal about.

The true story isn't anything more than I think your writing would be a whole lot more effective if you weren't so impressed by yourself. Your blog reads like an ongoing hagiography of the sort the North Koreans would write. While that vanity gets tiring, it's not a crime. What's maddening is your lack of intellectually honest engagement of critique on that or any other matter. And your position, implied by your comm…

Can I suggest if you find it tiring that you save yourself a lot of trouble and just don't read it? You know that's what most people do with stuff they don't like. Not questioning your sanity Daniel, but come on -- really, that's much of an excuse! :-)

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#348

Post by doorhammer »

gosu wrote: post #324
doorhammer wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what keeps me from getting more involved in a lot of online discussions. As it stands, I code mostly as a fun thing I like to do (I work it into my day job where I can). It's something I really enjoy. I've got a shelf full of books and an interest in the esoteric. I'll like casually reading about lambda calculus and taking long walks on the beach, but when I run into something I can't figure out, I have a pro…

People online have tended to be more abrasive to total programming novices than to people who have more advanced questions. I don't think it would be that bad for you. But another thing is that, for large and old communities where the developers aren't hanging around, people on IRC aren't necessarily going to be experts who know more than you. Those people have better stuff to do, by virtue of their skill. I personal…

Yeah. It's been frustrating at times, but it is satisfying to figure something out "alone" (clearly I only figure it out because someone else wrote a book about it).

I can get away with it because I don't have any deadlines or anything like that, really. I can just hammer away until I figure it out.

It's definitely been useful, though. And you're right; learning skills are still skills for sure.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#349

Post by 6d0debc071 »

abraxasz wrote: post #237
shadowfiend wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no fundamental incompatibility between being honest and being respectful and understanding. You can tell someone “you suck, go back to the corner of the Internet you came from, I don't have time for this”, or you can tell them “your skills don't seem to be quite at the level where we can accept your contributions; in particular, you don't understand X, Y, and Z very well and it shows in your code. I'm short…

I understand that this might be specific to me, but I'd actually rather have someone tell me: "You're useless. For god's sake stop contributing until you get your sh t together" rather than: “your skills don't seem to be quite at the level where we can accept your contributions; in particular, you don't understand X, Y, and Z very well and it shows in your code. I'm short on time, but if someone else has time to expl…

Hmm, the first one would basically stop me contributing at all. You go in feeling all good and like you're going to lend a hand, presumably to people you respect if you want to work with them in the first place, and then they turn around and basically tell you they think you're a retard. It'd hurt pretty bad.

I'd be interested, would you find something like this to be as patronising:

"Thanks for your submission. Could you improve X, Y, Z and resubmit?"

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#350

Post by MartinCron »

davewiner wrote: post #344
MartinCron wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry Dave, this is bigger than just you :) I care about being a part of a community that doesn't let the escalation of (real and perceived) slights debase the overall conversation. That's what I'm talking about. You spent 15 minutes on a story, I've spent the last few years trying to be a constructive part of this community.

Okay that's cool. It's just that you said some things about me that are wrong. You seem like a nice person. Just know that I'm not who you think I am. I get this all the time. When people hear how I talk they're suprised because it's not the voice they hear when they read my writing. But I write just the way I talk. Funny how that is. ;-)

I am a nice person, and I didn't actually say anything negative about you. I meant "transgressions" in a purely hypothetical way. Trying to make the point that now matter how pompous some blogger is, we should all be civil to each other here.

Don't mind me, I am just holding back the tide.

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