This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…
Hacker News is depressing
321–330 of 398 posts
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#322Earlier quoted context omitted.
Following, perhaps, but not blocking. One of the nice things that HN affords is that it doesn't really support filter bubbles--at least until mods or the community downvotes you to oblivion. Thus, there's a good chance that people at least get exposed to ideas they might otherwise ignore. Hell, I can think of several posts where I've strongly disagreed with somebody else, only to be in jovial agreement or discussion…
You don't block the people you disagree with. You block the jerks, the obvious trolls, the negative shit aka noise.
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#323This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…
I could not agree more. One factor that I think contributes to the Asshole Ethos common among programmers is this idea that great men of genius cannot be held to the same moral standards as mere mortals. This idea, combined with an inflated sense of self-worth, makes for a host of Steve Jobs and Linus Torvalds wannabes, convinced that their special nature absolves them from social norms and responsibility. The Raskol…
Is it that they feel this way inherently (maybe) or that there are a large percentage of people that surround them, and/or stand to gain from them, that tolerate and allow that behavior?
My feeling is that people act the way they do because they can get away with it with little repercussions.
If you've ever dealt with a person with an anger problem you will see that many times when they deal with someone close to them they act one way (abusive) but with complete strangers they can be as sweet as pie because that person is the unknown and they aren't going to take a chance with a stranger who might react in a way to deny them what they want (of course yes there are those who act like total loose canons with everyone but most that I have observed tend to differentiate between degree of closeness).
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#324Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree that people should be talking more about this. As an older student who hangs out on IRC a lot, I see two phenomena: - People get initiated into programmer culture pretty young, before they learn to stop being pretentious. They really like how meritocratic programmer culture is, but they get carried away with it the same way that people who say "gays should go to hell" or "the weak have no place in society" ge…
This is what keeps me from getting more involved in a lot of online discussions. As it stands, I code mostly as a fun thing I like to do (I work it into my day job where I can). It's something I really enjoy. I've got a shelf full of books and an interest in the esoteric. I'll like casually reading about lambda calculus and taking long walks on the beach, but when I run into something I can't figure out, I have a pro…
I personally think that I've picked up very useful "learning skills" because I have my own social reasons for answering technical questions without outside help. So maybe your exhaustion might also be a benefit for this reason.
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#325Earlier quoted context omitted.
I could not agree more. One factor that I think contributes to the Asshole Ethos common among programmers is this idea that great men of genius cannot be held to the same moral standards as mere mortals. This idea, combined with an inflated sense of self-worth, makes for a host of Steve Jobs and Linus Torvalds wannabes, convinced that their special nature absolves them from social norms and responsibility. The Raskol…
On the other hand Dave has a notoriously thin skin. He is very good at criticizing everyone else but he absolutely doesn't take criticism himself. Only time you are going to strike up a conversation with him is if you agree with him on everything. He generally expects everyone to bow to him as the inventor of blogging and RSS and podcasting and whatever, and that means you are supposed to listen to his opinions on ev…
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#326This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…
Misrepresenting your sources to make your point is FAR worse than 'shut the fuck up' in my opinion.
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#327This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…
We have as much right to defend the behavior as you have to attack it. It's an arbitrary questions of norms and of tolerance to criticism. In modern society it seems that we're so isolated and insecure in ourselves that we can't handle criticism and meanness. That everyone must be over socialized to be overly concerned about what everyone else thinks and not be concerned about the objectivity of what we're trying to…
Criticism means something in particular though, namely being critical of something.
Being critical of an idea does not mean insulting the person who proposed the idea, rather it means replying to the idea with intelligent commentary and feedback. There is rarely cause to be uncivil in providing criticism, and indeed doing such frequently closes doors to communication.
> A healthy level of tolerance of criticism is necessary for any sort of critical culture. Without it disasters like the nuclear disaster in Japan occur. Where everyone is trying to be so polite and get along that obvious problems go unsolved because criticism is not brought to bear on the right people at the right time.
Indeed this is true, but I think the overall feel in this thread is that the technical community frequently confuses criticism with outright personal attacks. In the very least, legitimate criticism is frequently mixed with verbal abuse, which adds nothing to the discourse.
> Yes there are limits to what is acceptable and not overdoing it. But then there is also a need for tolerance of criticism to an extent and perhaps if there is enough confidence a rebuttal to criticism.
A good engineer is one who accepts criticism, for that is how one improves. But if I am doing a code review, I would not tolerate someone questioning my history of career decisions when judging if my software architecture is correct.
I would not tolerate it because it is not on task, nor does it have a point or purpose.
There are times when bringing up the topic of someone's credentials or personal history is relevant, but even then there is no need to be disrespectful about it.
Now there are of course sometimes when more forceful language is called for, such as when personal or public safety is at stake, or when the future of a company is on the line. I would say that under those conditions, one should still do their best to communicate in a civil fashion, and then slowly escalate language used as is appropriate.
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#328Earlier quoted context omitted.
>the meanness of programming communities is a the biggest problem we have Or maybe it's our biggest asset. In a world filled with bullshit (how many people you think really empathize with you - vs. just going through the motions?), it's refreshing to have a little corner where they honestly tell you why your ideas suck and your background is deficient. It kind of comes with the profession, yes. Only a relentlessly cr…
You can cut out a lot of bullshit without being an asshole; it's just another set of social skills. Being an asshole also doesn't inherently cut out bullshit.
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#329Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Internet is not yours. If you put content on the PUBLIC Internet, consider yourself to be consenting to any abuse the Internet as a whole wishes to dish out in return.
So if I see you walking down a PUBLIC street and you are talking loudly, it's acceptable for me to smack you round the head with a baseball bat for being too loud? Or do we expect people in a civilised society to have some higher standards of behaviour?
Re: Hacker News is depressing
#330Earlier quoted context omitted.
These are all ridiculous routes to follow. I remember reading once an author who refused to e-mail or respond to e-mails, because he was concerned that every piece of text committed to a private commentary between him and another person would never have been published in a book, and will potentially even become a privileged (private) conversation, that nobody else can benefit from, ever. There is an obvious differenc…
Now I know that linux kernel devs are not meant to introduce breaking changes into userland, because of the power of his words And I also know that Linus isn't a person with whom I'll never interact on purpose.
Some things are important enough to flame over. I grew up on IRC, so I have a thick skin to that, and I've been flamed on my fair share of mailing lists too. Know what I learned there? I'm often wrong.
To an outsider, a thread where nobody gets flamed is usually pretty inconsequential. Coarse or colorful language makes it stand out more.