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Hacker News is depressing

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Re: Hacker News is depressing

#101

This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…

I could not agree more.

One factor that I think contributes to the Asshole Ethos common among programmers is this idea that great men of genius cannot be held to the same moral standards as mere mortals. This idea, combined with an inflated sense of self-worth, makes for a host of Steve Jobs and Linus Torvalds wannabes, convinced that their special nature absolves them from social norms and responsibility.

The Raskolnikov-ian egoists ought to read Crime and Punishment...

I can fortunately say that in my experience, few programmers are assholes in person. Online forums are another matter. :)

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#102

I don't know about depressing but the amount of drama on HN seems on the rise lately and I don't find it all that entertaining or interesting. I guess this old tune is played out but, I remember a time when things where better.

"the amount of drama on HN"

Is it homogenous and if not, is it still a problem?

My very quick glance at the situation looks like someone's not too happy about getting savaged because he positions himself as a lightning rod in the past and was writing about a fluffy social topic relating to a fluffy social issue in a fluffy social arena. The whole steaming pile does not sound like HN-type material. OK, I don't particularly care.

What I do care is the air is kept clean for a real "hacker" "news" technical article like "Nimrod 0.9.2 released". I don't even use Nimrod and I found it an interesting article and discussion. A tad flamey around the unicode spat, but unicode is a magnet for that kind of thing and even the tiny little flame (like a birthday candle) was vaguely technical and interesting so its at least semi-excusable. Overall a fine quality article, perhaps because all the "yer mom" comments fresh from 4chan were magnetically attracted to fluffy unicorn social hour over there, keeping them away from the "real" articles.

There are numerous other "hacker news" articles I could have used as an example of genuine hacker news. But fluffy unicorn social hour decoy articles are fairly rare. So we're in no danger of being overrun.

The TLDR being that periodic (intentional?) seeding of HN with drama, kept carefully firewalled away from the real articles, keeps the air clean.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#104
The author of the submitted blog post writes,

"One of the main reasons it doesn't work is that people don't ask questions to clarify. They jump to conclusions, some of which are very wrong."

I think that is the nub of the issue. People who are genuinely curious about an issue try to find out more. I routinely upvote comments here on any subject that ask for more information or more sources on factual statements made in articles submitted to HN or factual statements made in comments. We don't all have the same background in life experience and formal education, and I often learn new facts about the world from other Hacker News participants. I can't always assume that I understand another person's comment on the first read. Moreover, quite a few participants here write English as a second language. (How many Americans can write in ANY language besides English?) So sometimes the first thing to do when replying to an article submitted to HN is to ask follow-up questions. Another good thing to do is to point to other sources, if you know of any, for more information.

Civility is a core value of Paul Graham, the founder of Hacker News. He wants us to be able to disagree politely

http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html

when we do disagree, and the Hacker News welcome message

http://ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

distills the basic rules of the site into a simple statement: "Essentially there are two rules here: don't post or upvote crap links, and don't be rude or dumb in comment threads."

Don't be rude. Don't be mean. That's not easy, but that is the community guideline here. Or maybe not being mean or rude IS easy, if you practice it. It's worth finding out how much we could all habituate improving our social skills by how we behave here on Hacker News.

AFTER EDIT: It's worth pointing out that I wrote all of the above part of what I wrote before I really wrapped my mind around the fact that, after all, the submitted blog post comes from Dave Winer, whose blog posts I have been reading for more than a decade. I still stand by my statement that we may all as well be as civil as we possibly can and as factual as we possibly can here on Hacker News. This is a community we can all improve by our individual actions. That said, I think Dave Winer and plenty of other bloggers have plenty to learn from the best comment threads on Hacker News, the comment threads that most follow pg's aspirations for this site, precisely because there is a back-and-forth in the comments and a fact-checking that many bloggers shy away from. The difference between a blogger and a journalist is that a journalist is a reporter who writes for an editor. Sometimes bloggers write only for themselves, and when they do, they can learn from comments, if only they are willing to do so. When a blogger writes about another public figure, the blogger has to be able to take the heat, or maybe the blogger should find another kitchen.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#105
Yup, I also felt bad when I saw folks laying into Mr Winer yesterday. I was going to submit a "hey, be reasonable, lets have less of the ad hominem" but then I saw a few people had already done that. Of course, I voted those up.

But the real problem is also one of the unique features of HN; I couldn't flag or vote down any of the offending comments because I don't have enough karma. That's a shame, because it feels like I just have to sit on my hands and watch the bile flow. I think this makes the world appear rather worse than it is to anyone watching...

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#106

I thought people were a bit harsh yesterday too

It was mostly people saying personal attacks weren't helpful and self reflection then this post came out and said "IM TOTALLY BUTTHURT SO IM TAKING MY BALL AND GOING HOME". I'm not really sure which is worse but neither is good.

I'm sorry, I'm unclear--are people supposed to just stand around to accept the abuse of Internet strangers?

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#107
post #68

This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…

>> If you talked to your spouse like that it would be called abuse. And if you hit your spouse like boxers do in the ring then that would be abuse too. It's almost as if there are different rules for different situations. (No, I'm not saying that kernel development is like boxing)

The difference is consent.

Now, of course, that sparks off a question about whether submitting your post or your startup to HN is de facto consenting to be verbally abused. But I think that's a pretty useful conversation to have.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: In the spirit of being less negative, I'm deleting my original comment. I still contend that Mauro was in the wrong, and refused to acknowledge or fix his mistake, but will agree that Linus probably could have handled it better.

>You can probably stop reading now, because you obviously didn't read the whole Linus/Mauro thread from the beginning, and don't really want to understand. Amazing.

I will confess, that was a bit over the top, and the main reason I deleted the original comment; but much like many people who criticized Linus's comment, it was also out of context. Negativity comes in many forms, selective quoting is just one.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#110

This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…

That's nothing. Check these comments, anywhere else you would get summarily fired for emails like this. http://www.muktware.com/5276/linus-torvalds-secure-boot-supp... "Guys, this is not a dick-sucking contest. If you want to parse PE binaries, go right ahead. If Red Hat wants to deep-throat Microsoft, that's your issue..." What if that email was to a female kernel dev? What if a whizkid reads the kernel dev mailing…

> What if that email was to a female kernel dev?

So it is okay to swear at men but not at women? Why in this context?

Really, this is ridiculous. Why would something become acceptable/inacceptable simply because of the gender/religion/haircolour/height/taste in music of the recipient?

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